Type 054/A FFG Thread II


sndef888

Junior Member
Registered Member
Heck, even a 054A with only the VLS changed to the UVLS+quadpacked sam would be a decent upgrade for minimal cost, assuming it could fit at least ~24 UVLS in the same space

It would mean 32 medium range sams + 16 more cells for the PLA to mix and match depending on the mission


A new frigate with better propulsion would be ideal but may be costly considering the PLA doesn't have any gas turbines small enough
 
Last edited:

AndrewS

Colonel
Registered Member
Heck, even a 054A with only the VLS changed to the UVLS+quadpacked sam would be a decent upgrade for minimal cost, assuming it could fit at least ~24 UVLS in the same space

It would mean 32 medium range sams + 16 more cells for the PLA to mix and match depending on the mission


A new frigate with better propulsion would be ideal but may be costly considering the PLA doesn't have any gas turbines small enough

And what would the PLAN do with an extra 16 VLS cells on a Type-054A?
It would make it a juicier target for a submarine in the ASW role
If you want ASMs or SAMs, you're better off putting them on a Type-052D operating as the radar picket, or closer to the inner screen for last ditch defensive

And is the QC-280 really that big?
Plus in any case, a QC-280 should take up far less space than one of the current diesel engines on the Type-054A
 

sndef888

Junior Member
Registered Member
And what would the PLAN do with an extra 16 VLS cells on a Type-054A?
It would make it a juicier target for a submarine in the ASW role
If you want ASMs or SAMs, you're better off putting them on a Type-052D operating as the radar picket, or closer to the inner screen for last ditch defensive

And is the QC-280 really that big?
Plus in any case, a QC-280 should take up far less space than one of the current diesel engines on the Type-054A
At least a couple would be for vl asrocs just like on the 054As currently. The remaining ~8 could be used for better anti ship missiles or land attack missiles or just left FFBNW. Cruise missiles for example barely cost anything anything. I doubt a few extra VLS would change the value of the ship that much.

Besides, there's barely any extra space on 052Ds since they only have 64 unlike Burkes with 96.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Basically you're describing something similar to the Spruance ASW destroyers.
But like the Spruance, the basic 052 hull is oversized for solely the ASW role
You've got spare space with the VLS cells, which could be filled with Antiship or Land-attack missiles

Otherwise you might as well go with a smaller hull size closer to the Type-054A

Not oversized. The Udaloy class is fairly about the same size and this is optimized for ASW.

Steel is the cheapest component of a warship. An increase in tonnage is the cheapest thing you can add to a warship. More space also means more provisions, fuel and food with more living room for sustained journeys.

Frigates continue to get larger. Type 31 "intermediate frigate" is already about roughly the size of the 051B/C. Germany has contracted frigates that would displace already at over 10,000 tons.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Only issue I can think of with this idea is the hull of the 052D is very old and may or may not be optimised for ASW warfare. With how advanced US subs are these days they're going to need every little advantage

Also the 052D uses gas turbines which I'm guessing is a lot more expensive than the diesels on the 054A

Gas turbines are also smoother than diesels which aid in ASW work. So thus its a real advantage, and it enables the ship to "dash" in pursuit of SSNs. The Soviets then the Russians use gas turbines in ships down to corvette size. For example the Krivak class and the Admiral Grigorovich class, which is roughly the size equivalent to the 054A, uses four gas turbines.

The most expensive part of a warship is the weapons and sensor systems.

Reusing the 052X hull makes it cheaper---
Proven platform
Little to no development cost
Leverages existing machinery (presses, molds and so on)
Leverages existing labor skillsets. Little to no retraining.
Leverages existing ship equipment, Weapons, sensors and the like.
Increased volume production lowers cost of the hull as a whole. This also means 052D/E also becomes cheaper to build.
Leverages familiarity. Less training costs,
 

AndrewS

Colonel
Registered Member
Not oversized. The Udaloy class is fairly about the same size and this is optimized for ASW.

Steel is the cheapest component of a warship. An increase in tonnage is the cheapest thing you can add to a warship. More space also means more provisions, fuel and food with more living room for sustained journeys.

Frigates continue to get larger. Type 31 "intermediate frigate" is already about roughly the size of the 051B/C. Germany has contracted frigates that would displace already at over 10,000 tons.

With the Udaloys, you can also see they have been built with an extremely long range in mind. It's listed as 19,400 km @ 14 knots.
That is 3x more than the contemporary Sovremmeny AAW destroyer

You can also see 64 Medium-Range SAMs on the Udaloy, which is twice as many as the Spruance ASW destroyers or most Frigates
Yes, the Udaloys were optimised for ASW, but it looks more for long-range ASW operations far from resupply

The other Frigates you mentioned all have to travel long distances as well, but I don't see China having a requirement for a long-range ASW ship in a high-intensity conflict for some time yet. Eventually yes, but not for another 10 years.

Until then, I expect Chinese ASW ships would be operating at a maximum of 3000km (eg Guam/ASEAN) from the Chinese coastline, and frequently would be a lot closer to home

So I think a 4000ton-class ASW Frigate (like the Type-054, OH Perry or Neustrashimy) is more cost-efficient than a 7500ton-class ASW Destroyer (like the Udaloy or a Type-052 ASW variant)
 

blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
With the Udaloys, you can also see they have been built with an extremely long range in mind. It's listed as 19,400 km @ 14 knots.
That is 3x more than the contemporary Sovremmeny AAW destroyer

You can also see 64 Medium-Range SAMs on the Udaloy, which is twice as many as the Spruance ASW destroyers or most Frigates
Yes, the Udaloys were optimised for ASW, but it looks more for long-range ASW operations far from resupply

The other Frigates you mentioned all have to travel long distances as well, but I don't see China having a requirement for a long-range ASW ship in a high-intensity conflict for some time yet. Eventually yes, but not for another 10 years.

Until then, I expect Chinese ASW ships would be operating at a maximum of 3000km (eg Guam/ASEAN) from the Chinese coastline, and frequently would be a lot closer to home

So I think a 4000ton-class ASW Frigate (like the Type-054, OH Perry or Neustrashimy) is more cost-efficient than a 7500ton-class ASW Destroyer (like the Udaloy or a Type-052 ASW variant)
But with the same logic, PLAN don't have to build the 055 either, at least not for now.

I agree that PLAN still need 054-sized ASW ships, but it's also good time to start to develop a larger ASW frigate for the future.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
With the Udaloys, you can also see they have been built with an extremely long range in mind. It's listed as 19,400 km @ 14 knots.
That is 3x more than the contemporary Sovremmeny AAW destroyer

You can also see 64 Medium-Range SAMs on the Udaloy, which is twice as many as the Spruance ASW destroyers or most Frigates
Yes, the Udaloys were optimised for ASW, but it looks more for long-range ASW operations far from resupply

The other Frigates you mentioned all have to travel long distances as well, but I don't see China having a requirement for a long-range ASW ship in a high-intensity conflict for some time yet. Eventually yes, but not for another 10 years.

Until then, I expect Chinese ASW ships would be operating at a maximum of 3000km (eg Guam/ASEAN) from the Chinese coastline, and frequently would be a lot closer to home

So I think a 4000ton-class ASW Frigate (like the Type-054, OH Perry or Neustrashimy) is more cost-efficient than a 7500ton-class ASW Destroyer (like the Udaloy or a Type-052 ASW variant)

Udaloy does not have medium range SAMs. It has Klinoks. Klinoks -> Naval Tor-M1 -> Similar to HQ-17. Close equivalent to Tor-M1 in the West is Crotale, which is for Chinese HQ-7. Tor-M1 is a very effective SHORAD. Udaloy is a porcupine with short ranged but sharp spikes.

054A is long ranged enough to service the Gulf of Aden. What a 052X based frigate can bring to the ASW equation is the dash ability of gas turbines, its ability to keep up with carrier groups, and its inherent smoothness.

OH sized frigates are going down the dodo bird, as the world trend is to keep building larger and larger warships. Frigates would be destroyer sized in the future and destroyers will be cruiser sized. Check this.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Proven still capable hull that can leverage existing infrastructure in manufacturing and training vs. brand new platform that's probably only going to be slightly or incrementally smaller, requires new training and such. The brand new platform isn't going to be cheap because it requires new manufacturing equipment, training and so on. So its initial costs are going to be higher among earlier units, while 052X platform has long been amortized, and the costs keep going lower to every unit.
 

Top