054/A FFG Thread II

[SAC]

Construction of further Type 054 Frigates, without significant development, would only make sense under the following conditions:

• Embarked helicopter requirements dictate a Z-20, resulting in the need to lengthen the hull by approximately 4 metres; and/or
• Critical mass of ASW Frigates is needed before enough of the follow-on class of ASW Frigates will be ready.

 

[SpicySichuan]

Construction of further Type 054 Frigates, without significant development, would only make sense under the following conditions:

• Embarked helicopter requirements dictate a Z-20, resulting in the need to lengthen the hull by approximately 4 metres; and/or
• Critical mass of ASW Frigates is needed before enough of the follow-on class of ASW Frigates will be ready.

And a new AESA air search radar.

 

[Tam]

And a new AESA air search radar.

I suspect they might install these. That's why it would be exciting (or disappointing) to see how the 31st ship comes up.

 

[Blitzo]

I suspect they might install these. That's why it would be exciting (or disappointing) to see how the 31st ship comes up.


View attachment 68042

I'd be pleased enough if they equipped the new batch of 054As with the same radar as the 054A/Ps...

That radar will definitely be expected on 054B, but such a significant upgrade for 054A seems unlikely to me..

 

[Tam]

I'd be pleased enough if they equipped the new batch of 054As with the same radar as the 054A/Ps...

That radar will definitely be expected on 054B, but such a significant upgrade for 054A seems unlikely to me..

The one for the 054A/P might be export only. Export ships do not have the same equipment as the PLAN ships. They have either entirely different equipment or have a variant of the same equipment exclusively for export that do not share the same frequency. The SR2410C is meant as a Thales SMART-S replacement. Two SMART-S radars were exported to China for the construction of the two Algerian C28 corvettes, and given that in the future, such radars may end up getting blocked by the EU, the SR2410C was created for this export warship market. That's why these radars show up on the Bangladesh C13 corvettes. The fact that the 054A/P also needs to have the VHF radar also point the SR2410C doesn't have that much of a range, and its designation seems to suggest it runs on C-band which also isn't a range focused choice for a frequency band. The Type 382 is likely to have much better search range and volume than the SR2410C, but the SR2410C is also likely to have a much higher update and tracking rate than the Type 382, which points out the radars don't have the same mission profile. Even if the SR2410C is an AESA, the array itself is quite small which reduces its receive gain, and if you can run that off a Type 056 corvette, then its power requirements isn't that high either, and is comparable to the older Type 360 search radar.

I think the SR2410C is much better suited for tracking and targeting supersonic missiles that are within range of the radar, such as Brahmos, but lacks the power to detect stealthier targets at range hence the VHF radar on the back.

I do not think the new PLAN 054A will copy this layout the 054A/P has. If you are going to put an SR2410C that means a VHF radar is going to be on the back and I don't see the "wire mesh" you see on the 052DL being on top of the 054A's back hanger, and which I would expect to be filled with SATCOMs given the ever growing number of satellite constellations the PLAN is requiring their ships to link with.

You are going to need a radar that has a much better tracking ability than the Type 382, which is this radar's weakness, in addition to having pulse compression and frequency agility, also a problem with the Type 382. But you also need it to have a similar range at least. Not the least, you want the radar to be able to detect LO objects better.

Another alternative is to use the new radar on the 075, although I kind of doubt this radar has the same range as the bigger one. But I see this radar being a better choice than the SR2410C. The dual band allows it to be both a volume search and a tight tracking radar at the same time. It can be the new 054A may retain the Type 382, but replace the Type 364 at the back with this. That would still be a big improvement over the current 054A.

The dual sided radar that you see appears to be like a slot in replacement to the Type 382. Similar in weight, balance and power requirements. Its not the most powerful radar and it may have equal to better range but most importantly it is meant to remove the limitations of the Type 382 (vertical scan only, lacks pulse compression and frequency agility, narrow bandwidth.) It is set high on the Test Ship 892, which tells me its weight ain't much, neither is the power feed, and comparable to the Type 382 or the experimental radar tested before on the 892.

If the 054B or 057 was delayed, it probably meant the original designs for it may not be ambitious enough for the PLAN whose requirements have changed and no longer saw the original design as adequate. If the new frigate is now going to be made concurrently with the improved 054A, then there must be enough design changes and upgraded specifications to set the new ship apart from the old one. IMO, the 054B/057 will have a more ambitious radar arrangement to merit this delay.

 

[Blitzo]

The one for the 054A/P might be export only. Export ships do not have the same equipment as the PLAN ships. They have either entirely different equipment or have a variant of the same equipment exclusively for export that do not share the same frequency. The SR2410C is meant as a Thales SMART-S replacement. Two SMART-S radars were exported to China for the construction of the two Algerian C28 corvettes, and given that in the future, such radars may end up getting blocked by the EU, the SR2410C was created for this export warship market. That's why these radars show up on the Bangladesh C13 corvettes. The fact that the 054A/P also needs to have the VHF radar also point the SR2410C doesn't have that much of a range, and its designation seems to suggest it runs on C-band which also isn't a range focused choice for a frequency band. The Type 382 is likely to have much better search range and volume than the SR2410C, but the SR2410C is also likely to have a much higher update and tracking rate than the Type 382, which points out the radars don't have the same mission profile. Even if the SR2410C is an AESA, the array itself is quite small which reduces its receive gain, and if you can run that off a Type 056 corvette, then its power requirements isn't that high either, and is comparable to the older Type 360 search radar.

I think the SR2410C is much better suited for tracking and targeting supersonic missiles that are within range of the radar, such as Brahmos, but lacks the power to detect stealthier targets at range hence the VHF radar on the back.

I do not think the new PLAN 054A will copy this layout the 054A/P has. If you are going to put an SR2410C that means a VHF radar is going to be on the back and I don't see the "wire mesh" you see on the 052DL being on top of the 054A's back hanger, and which I would expect to be filled with SATCOMs given the ever growing number of satellite constellations the PLAN is requiring their ships to link with.

You are going to need a radar that has a much better tracking ability than the Type 382, which is this radar's weakness, in addition to having pulse compression and frequency agility, also a problem with the Type 382. But you also need it to have a similar range at least. Not the least, you want the radar to be able to detect LO objects better.

Another alternative is to use the new radar on the 075, although I kind of doubt this radar has the same range as the bigger one. But I see this radar being a better choice than the SR2410C. The dual band allows it to be both a volume search and a tight tracking radar at the same time. It can be the new 054A may retain the Type 382, but replace the Type 364 at the back with this. That would still be a big improvement over the current 054A.

The dual sided radar that you see appears to be like a slot in replacement to the Type 382. Similar in weight, balance and power requirements. Its not the most powerful radar and it may have equal to better range but most importantly it is meant to remove the limitations of the Type 382 (vertical scan only, lacks pulse compression and frequency agility, narrow bandwidth.) It is set high on the Test Ship 892, which tells me its weight ain't much, neither is the power feed, and comparable to the Type 382 or the experimental radar tested before on the 892.

If the 054B or 057 was delayed, it probably meant the original designs for it may not be ambitious enough for the PLAN whose requirements have changed and no longer saw the original design as adequate. If the new frigate is now going to be made concurrently with the improved 054A, then there must be enough design changes and upgraded specifications to set the new ship apart from the old one. IMO, the 054B/057 will have a more ambitious radar arrangement.

It goes without saying that the radar on the 054A/P (which may or may not be the same SR2410C seen on the latter C13B corvettes) would be less capable than the twin side AESA we've seen on the 892 test ship.

Whether 054A is able to accommodate the new twin side AESA is another matter.
If 054A is unable to accommodate the new twin side AESA, the new radar on 054A/P is likely still a superior option to Type 382/Sea Eagle.
I'm also not convinced that the radar on 054A/P is meaningfully inferior in performance to Type 382, if anything I expect it to be superior.

If anything, I think the 054A/P's radar is probably superior to Type 382/Sea Eagle.
I think the presence of the VHF yagi array on the 054A/P is not to make up for the new radar's lack of capability relative to Type 382/Sea Eagle but because the Pakistani Navy has no other ships in its orbat now or into the near future that will be able to have a VHF VSR capability in the first place, therefore they are forced to opt for such a capability on the 054A/P.

 

[Tam]

It goes without saying that the radar on the 054A/P (which may or may not be the same SR2410C seen on the latter C13B corvettes) would be less capable than the twin side AESA we've seen on the 892 test ship.

Whether 054A is able to accommodate the new twin side AESA is another matter.
If 054A is unable to accommodate the new twin side AESA, the new radar on 054A/P is likely still a superior option to Type 382/Sea Eagle.
I'm also not convinced that the radar on 054A/P is meaningfully inferior in performance to Type 382, if anything I expect it to be superior.

If anything, I think the 054A/P's radar is probably superior to Type 382/Sea Eagle.
I think the presence of the VHF yagi array on the 054A/P is not to make up for the new radar's lack of capability relative to Type 382/Sea Eagle but because the Pakistani Navy has no other ships in its orbat now or into the near future that will be able to have a VHF VSR capability in the first place, therefore they are forced to opt for such a capability on the 054A/P.

The radar on the 054A/P is the same SR2410C used on the C13B, and that's already been said.

It won't have the same range even compared to the Type 382. Even on the 054A/P you can see already it is much smaller. The smaller the surface area the array has, the less energy it receives. Again, obvious.

Another factor is that the SR2410C has a rectangular shape. This means the number of vertical elements is limited, compared to the Type 382, which has a square shape and has more vertical rows. That's going to mean a less precise elevation measurement for the SR2410C versus the Type 382. The SR2410C array is wider than it is taller, which means more horizontal elements which is better for back and forth scans as opposed to vertical elements which is for up and down scans. This means the SR2410C is more optimized for scanning targets near the surface --- hence why its on the C13B --- than the Type 382, which meant for sheer volume search, intended to detect targets that are also at high altitude. Its no wonder that the Type 382's Russian inspiration, the Fregat MR710 Top Plate, is used on the Kirov class battlecruiser and the Slava class cruisers, and you also see it on the Type 051C.

The Pakistan Navy is not likely to face the same kind of aerial opposition as the PLAN. They are more concerned with the Brahmos, which is a fast mover low flyer, so you need something more optimized for tracking a fast moving target lower in the water. The SR2410C fits that bill better. Compared to the Type 382, its a better radar for tracking targets near or on the water surface, which means also means from helicopters to small littoral combat vessels.

Simply said, both radars have pros and cons, the nature of which points to these radars having a different mission profile from the other.

The only way the PLAN would accept the SR2410C is that your air defense and radar picket mission profile for the 054A would have changed (re-adapted/evolved). But if the concept or doctrine for the 054A remains unchanged, then it is not suitable.

You contrast that to the dual sided radar, each side is equal in dimension in both X and Y. This thing is meant for volume search, both high and wide, much closer to what you would expect for the Type 382. This thing is also meant to deal with high flyers, such as bombers like B-52s to HALE drones.

The VHF radar, whether its on the F22P, the 052C/D or the new one on the 052DL, is not meant for high flyers or precise elevation measurement as these is 2D, with only two rows you are not going to measure height precisely either. Its there only to detect something and queue other radars to the target for more precise measurement. For that reason, the Type 517 and its successor and nor does the export variant, doesn't exactly cut into the same role as the Type 382.

Because this new dual sided radar is much newer than the 054A, it can be designed in hindsight to fit older ships as a replacement. The Type 382 or Fregat MAE MR710 radar ain't a slouch in weight. With all that metal wave guides and a large transmitter on the back, and that Cold War legacy in its design, there is going to be much heft to it. The masts to support this would have be built in mind for this.

The dual sided radar given that its rotary, is going to be light enough to be rotated and would have to be air cooled. So there is performance compromises.

I do not believe that this dual sided radar is the differentiating component between the upgraded 054A and the 054B/057. In terms of sensors it may likely be on another radar. Its possible both ships may end up with the dual sided radar, but the 054B/057 might also have another radar that's different from the upgraded 054A, and this might be on the fire control aspect.

The new dual sided dual band radar on the Type 075 has an aspect ratio wider than it is taller in one side. Again, another radar more optimized towards surface scanning than it is for the horizontal, or at least one side of it. One side has a more vertical face, while the other side is inclined more to face up. One side is said to have a higher frequency band and the other side lower, rumored to be an S and an X-band. I need to get a better view of the other side to see its aspect ratio, but this radar looks like one side is volume air search and the other side is more for surface scanning. The dual purpose of this radar also makes it a better choice than the SR2410C and overlaps into the mission profile of the Type 382.

If I am going to be dealing with LRASMs and F-35s, I would have planned that years before. Comparing the two dual sided radars, the bigger one would have a greater receiving area and a larger number of S-band elements, which makes it a better choice for dealing with LO and VLO targets.

 

[Blitzo]

The radar on the 054A/P is the same SR2410C used on the C13B, and that's already been said.

Are we sure?
I ask this mostly for academic reasons, because I don't think we've had any definitive confirmation from the manufacturer that the radar on 054A/P is SR2410C.
We've been burned before with export subsystems that had external similarities with other systems but turned out to be different.

That said, for the purposes of discussion I'm happy to operate under the assumption it is SR2410C.

It won't have the same range even compared to the Type 382. Even on the 054A/P you can see already it is much smaller. The smaller the surface area the array has, the less energy it receives. Again, obvious.

Another factor is that the SR2410C has a rectangular shape. This means the number of vertical elements is limited, compared to the Type 382, which has a square shape and has more vertical rows. That's going to mean a less precise elevation measurement for the SR2410C versus the Type 382. The SR2410C array is wider than it is taller, which means more horizontal elements which is better for back and forth scans as opposed to vertical elements which is for up and down scans. This means the SR2410C is more optimized for scanning targets near the surface --- hence why its on the C13B --- than the Type 382, which meant for sheer volume search, intended to detect targets that are also at high altitude. Its no wonder that the Type 382's Russian inspiration, the Fregat MR710 Top Plate, is used on the Kirov class battlecruiser and the Slava class cruisers, and you also see it on the Type 051C.

The Pakistan Navy is not likely to face the same kind of aerial opposition as the PLAN. They are more concerned with the Brahmos, which is a fast mover low flyer, so you need something more optimized for tracking a fast moving target lower in the water. The SR2410C fits that bill better. Compared to the Type 382, its a better radar for tracking targets near or on the water surface, which means also means from helicopters to small littoral combat vessels.

Simply said, both radars have pros and cons, the nature of which points to these radars having a different mission profile from the other.

The only way the PLAN would accept the SR2410C is that your air defense and radar picket mission profile for the 054A would have changed (re-adapted/evolved). But if the concept or doctrine for the 054A remains unchanged, then it is not suitable.

You contrast that to the dual sided radar, each side is equal in dimension in both X and Y. This thing is meant for volume search, both high and wide, much closer to what you would expect for the Type 382. This thing is also meant to deal with high flyers, such as bombers like B-52s to HALE drones.

The VHF radar, whether its on the F22P, the 052C/D or the new one on the 052DL, is not meant for high flyers or precise elevation measurement as these is 2D, with only two rows you are not going to measure height precisely either. Its there only to detect something and queue other radars to the target for more precise measurement. For that reason, the Type 517 and its successor and nor does the export variant, doesn't exactly cut into the same role as the Type 382.

Because this new dual sided radar is much newer than the 054A, it can be designed in hindsight to fit older ships as a replacement. The Type 382 or Fregat MAE MR710 radar ain't a slouch in weight. With all that metal wave guides and a large transmitter on the back, and that Cold War legacy in its design, there is going to be much heft to it. The masts to support this would have be built in mind for this.

The dual sided radar given that its rotary, is going to be light enough to be rotated and would have to be air cooled. So there is performance compromises.

I do not believe that this dual sided radar is the differentiating component between the upgraded 054A and the 054B/057. In terms of sensors it may likely be on another radar. Its possible both ships may end up with the dual sided radar, but the 054B/057 might also have another radar that's different from the upgraded 054A, and this might be on the fire control aspect.

The new dual sided dual band radar on the Type 075 has an aspect ratio wider than it is taller in one side. Again, another radar more optimized towards surface scanning than it is for the horizontal, or at least one side of it. One side has a more vertical face, while the other side is inclined more to face up. One side is said to have a higher frequency band and the other side lower, rumored to be an S and an X-band. I need to get a better view of the other side to see its aspect ratio, but this radar looks like one side is volume air search and the other side is more for surface scanning. The dual purpose of this radar also makes it a better choice than the SR2410C and overlaps into the mission profile of the Type 382.

If I am going to be dealing with LRASMs and F-35s, I would have planned that years before. Comparing the two dual sided radars, the bigger one would have a greater receiving area and a larger number of S-band elements, which makes it a better choice for dealing with LO and VLO targets.


View attachment 68075

That's a lot of my points, many of which are not relevant to my position as such.

I'll explain the basis of my position.

Assuming this is SR2410C, it should have performance similar to Smart S.
IMO, a performance similar to Smart S is perfectly acceptable for a frigate of 054A's size and role. Even if the maximum range of the radar is slightly lower than Type 382, it should have significantly better performance in its own performance range (~250km) against more modern targets in a more cluttered environment and likely with greater target tracking capability and ECCM as well.

Comparisons of the size of the respective radars (SR2410C vs Type 382, or Smart S vs Type 382 for that matter, or Artisan vs Type 382) are not really useful given how different their respective technological eras are.



IF the new twin side AESA seen on 892 is capable of being fitted onto 054As, then obviously that would be ideal.
But I think that might be aiming a little bit high and overambitious. I am not sure if 054As will have the SWAP-C to accommodate a radar of that size.
In that event, I think the most likely radar for the new batch of 054As may be a domestic variant of SR2410C -- and I think that would be perfectly adequate for 054A.

 

[Tam]

Are we sure?
I ask this mostly for academic reasons, because I don't think we've had any definitive confirmation from the manufacturer that the radar on 054A/P is SR2410C.
We've been burned before with export subsystems that had external similarities with other systems but turned out to be different.

That said, for the purposes of discussion I'm happy to operate under the assumption it is SR2410C.





That's a lot of my points, many of which are not relevant to my position as such.

I'll explain the basis of my position.

Assuming this is SR2410C, it should have performance similar to Smart S.
IMO, a performance similar to Smart S is perfectly acceptable for a frigate of 054A's size and role. Even if the maximum range of the radar is slightly lower than Type 382, it should have significantly better performance in its own performance range (~250km) against more modern targets in a more cluttered environment and likely with greater target tracking capability and ECCM as well.

Comparisons of the size of the respective radars (SR2410C vs Type 382, or Smart S vs Type 382 for that matter, or Artisan vs Type 382) are not really useful given how different their respective technological eras are.



IF the new twin side AESA seen on 892 is capable of being fitted onto 054As, then obviously that would be ideal.
But I think that might be aiming a little bit high and overambitious. I am not sure if 054As will have the SWAP-C to accommodate a radar of that size.
In that event, I think the most likely radar for the new batch of 054As may be a domestic variant of SR2410C -- and I think that would be perfectly adequate for 054A.

I am pretty sure that it is and I doubt you are going to make a new radar system just for the 054A/P. The R/D to develop something that will only be used for a few units of export would be costly and inefficient, not to mention it would take time to develop and vet for use.

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It is also pretty clear that the radar is small, a lot more wide than it is tall. That fits the SR2410C, and even if it isn't by very low chance, its operating characteristics would still be similar.

What do you mean "technological eras"? Regardless of technological era a bigger array is still a bigger array, and the array's geometry matters for its ability to receive and measure. A bigger array will no doubt capture more photons for a stronger signal. Not only that, with the bigger array, the differences in the photons as they strike various areas of the array becomes more pronounced, in their time of arrival, the frequency as of arrival, the amplitude as of arrival, and it is these comparisons between all these signals that produce the data that matters. This is oversimplifying for the sake of a post but its the gist of it.





Wide arrays like these are more limited in their elevation scans because the number of elements in rows are more limited. It is the cumulative interference effect of these elements in one direction that creates the steer. They have more elements arranged in a row however, which helps them in the horizontal scan. These radars are optimized for the horizontal scan, aka surface search.

If you want the array to be more efficient scanning in both X and Y axis, you need a more square like shape in the array. If you are planning volume search across large portions of the sky, like real air search, having a more square shaped array to have a good number of elements horizontal and vertical.



Fire control arrays for anti air are no wonder why they are a bit taller than wider.




IMO the radar you see on the 054A/P right now, isn't optimized for dealing with high altitude threats like bombers and drones. If the PLAN is willing to accept that as a compromise its their call. But looking at why the Type 382 was selected for the Type 054A, replacing the 2D horizontal scan only Type 360S on the Type 054, suggests air defense against high altitude threats is part of what they are looking for back when these things were conceived.

Smart-S itself getting replaced by NS50, NS100 or NS200 in frigate sized vessels, all squarish arrays.






They can take the SR2410C and reshape the array with a more square proportion, increasing the number of elements in the Y axis. But it would also be the same as taking that dual sided radar and making it a single sided one.

 

[Tam]

I didn't post this here yet but for those that are interested.

SAST helped developed the HQ-16 systems, radar seeker, search and fire control unit. See the ship behind the ICW seeker and look at the top radar.

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