Type 054/A FFG Thread II


Tam

Colonel
Registered Member
I am in love with this rational-functional frigate, for example: the ship's funnel/chimney (heat source): Radar 364 at the top, and on both sides, port and starboard, 1130 CIWS

IMO, I would reverse the positions of the Type 364 Sea Gull C radar with the Type 382 Sea Eagle, much like the way on the 051C, the Sea Gull is on the front and the Top Plate radar is on the rear. Notice that in all the 052C and D, the Type 364 is also in front.
 

Gloire_bb

Junior Member
Registered Member
HHQ-16 is similar in size with the SM-2, and the missile is kept and launched without folding the fins.
Yep, in a launch container, as far as we see on HQ-16. There is no indication that storage/launch is possible w/o this container. If anything, unfolding fins suggest the opposite. Thus, the effective volume of Mk.41 cell is likely to be larger.

But perhaps more importantly: HHQ-16 itself is a medium-range SAM by modern standards, not too long-ranged one at that. If you can design another medium-range missile for the same VLS in 1/4th the size - what's the point of the larger one?
It may be possible to develop a self-defense missile of this size(fleet of 054A is substantial), but the original post was about an area defense missile.

or the Russians use in their Redut and Shtil-1
That's...a curious choice of examples.
Shtil(VLS version) is a directly related system, so if it's an argument, it's an argument against such possibility. Using SARH(ARH) and IR missiles isn't the same, HHQ-16 electronic systems may be simply unsuitable/unfeasible for such use.

And redut has a well-known ability to pack small, self-defense quad packs(9m100) in their separate transport/launch containers. :)
 

Tam

Colonel
Registered Member
Yep, in a launch container, as far as we see on HQ-16. There is no indication that storage/launch is possible w/o this container. If anything, unfolding fins suggest the opposite. Thus, the effective volume of Mk.41 cell is likely to be larger.

In a multipurpose VLS, missiles are packed in a canister with dedicated canisters for each type. What is strange about it?

But perhaps more importantly: HHQ-16 itself is a medium-range SAM by modern standards, not too long-ranged one at that. If you can design another medium-range missile for the same VLS in 1/4th the size - what's the point of the larger one?
It may be possible to develop a self-defense missile of this size(fleet of 054A is substantial), but the original post was about an area defense missile.

For a medium range missile the HHQ-16 is a large missile, about 700kg, which is also about the weight of an SM-2. For a missile to have a low range relative to its weight, it must have a fast burn, which means it accelerates extremely quick and reaches a very high top speed in a very short amount of time. The literature on the Buk missile shows it reaching Mach 4.

Such a quad pack missile will likely be a short ranged one if you prefer a fast burn profile. A slower burning profile would increase range but at the cost of interception chances.

That's...a curious choice of examples.
Shtil(VLS version) is a directly related system, so if it's an argument, it's an argument against such possibility. Using SARH(ARH) and IR missiles isn't the same, HHQ-16 electronic systems may be simply unsuitable/unfeasible for such use.

And redut has a well-known ability to pack small, self-defense quad packs(9m100) in their separate transport/launch containers. :)

I guess wrong example then.


to quadpack to these.

5c614387370f2c9b3b8b45f8.jpg

Means the missiles have to be in separate canisters and you can switch out the canisters to another.

DFgHxLaVYAQHnE5.jpeg

So more or less you are trying to hypothetically do the same with the AJK-16. But no doubt the resulting missiles will be short ranged, likely below 20km in range at the most. For the trouble, you might as well consider being able to adapt an HQ-10 launcher instead.
 
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how about quad pack with 2 bigger SAM and 2 smaller SAM ? or tri pack

Attached is UVLS packing that posted years ago in this forum, possibly by @Bltizo ?
 

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Tam

Colonel
Registered Member
Maybe against a subsonic target, 0.7-0.9 Mach ... "navy red flag" (HHQ) 16 could launch two volleys of two missiles that would be 4 in total, and then 1130 CIWS (30 mm x 11 (Wooow)) could fire four 1-second volleys

I was playing to imagine a new version, but the last ones (sometimes called 054A+) is already a good Beast, and if for example we add YJ-12 to it ...

Anyway, it seems to me that we fans fly with our imaginations towards the latest futuristic inventions or we think of solutions without having much idea of the problem, for example, I can think of a large VHF radar and four flat antennas of a X-radar located high up, to replace the four target illumination radars and the 364 radar

One thing I might say is to monitor further progress on the 054A/P. There is a pyramid pedestal on the back, similar to the original 054 but not found in the 054A, and this pedestal might be used for a VHF radar like the one the PN uses on the F22P. Its a smaller, appears to be a higher frequency, variant of the Type 517 meant for export. But there is no way of telling if they would do the same on the new batch of 054A.

Four flat X-band arrays high up are not going to happen, unless you chose to rebuild the entire mast into an integrated one, like what the Russians are doing to one of the Project 20380 corvettes. The problem of the integrated mast is the question where you plan to hang all that other stuff, like navigation radars, IFF, datalinks, ESM, the EO etc,. If you want an AESA on these ships, its better to replace the Type 382 and Type 364 radars directly with rotating AESAs, and there are already existing candidates for these.

I think it would be a much simpler solution to just replace all the illuminators one by one with pedestal mounted movable X-band arrays situated on the same spot like this CEAMOUNT illuminator.

CEAMount1.jpg
 
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gelgoog

Captain
Registered Member
Quad pack is relevant because of the threat of drones and drone swarms. Even if the range is relatively short.
 

Tam

Colonel
Registered Member
Quad pack is relevant because of the threat of drones and drone swarms. Even if the range is relatively short.

I wonder how much it would take to develop a shortened version of the U-VLS for the 054A. The larger dimensions of the U-VLS is compensated by the fact the U-VLS does not have a central plenum vent like the AJK-16 VLS has. The Buk missile is said to be around 5.5 meters long, I don't know the exact length of the HQ-16 if its the same, slightly longer or slightly shorter. It would be one missile per cell. This may require a change of the canister to something that is heat resistant if hot launched, since the exhaust gases would vent on the space between the sides of the canister or the VLS wall. Or go cold launch like the land based HQ-16 using a similar canister used on the land based versions. Yu-8 would require another canister change too. This can open the way of using these missiles for the 055 and 054B if the new frigate plans on using the U-VLS, or on the 052D if a future HHQ-16 gets a ARH version.

Having the U-VLS installed means the new 054A could share the same new quad pack missile development that is going to be used on the 052D. All the changes are going to be completely mechanical; no change on the HQ-16, guidance, illumination systems and so on. You're primarily laying groundwork in the future so you can use the quad missile. Of course this is all highly speculative.
 

Gloire_bb

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wonder how much it would take to develop a shortened version of the U-VLS for the 054A.
That wouldn't be A anymore.

The key message of that leak(coupled with the post about lengthening not constituting enough of a change for a new letter) was basically that PLAN needs the line rolling.
We don't know if it's possible with these changes or no, but changing main weapon system is clearly enough for a new mod.

IMHO, HHQ-16 will remain to be a separate existence for lesser warships in foreseeable future.
 

Tam

Colonel
Registered Member
That wouldn't be A anymore.

The key message of that leak(coupled with the post about lengthening not constituting enough of a change for a new letter) was basically that PLAN needs the line rolling.
We don't know if it's possible with these changes or no, but changing main weapon system is clearly enough for a new mod.

IMHO, HHQ-16 will remain to be a separate existence for lesser warships in foreseeable future.

This is only my theoretical to bridge the gap between the 054A and the 052D systems.

Contrary to what most people's own visions about weapons systems, perhaps the PLAN doesn't really care much about quad pack missiles and it really isn't as high a priority to them as some people might want to be. What I think is high on their list is electronic warfare along with communications.

I don't think there would be much changes at all except for logical changes on the EW, as the 054A carry the unique Type 751 ESM and ECM system which is not found on other PLAN ships. The last four 054A has changes however in the EW system. The Type 751 unit on the upper mast, likely the ESM, have been modified to a new version with what appears to be a crown of elements on top, and the 751 unit on the bottom is replaced by the beefier and ubiquitous Type 726-3 ECM that has become standard throughout the PLAN.

I can imagine the topmost 751 ESM unit to be replaced by 721-1 and -2 ESM systems as part of the PLAN's standardization around the Type 726 electronic warfare suite. The 052, 053H3, 051B and DDG 136/137 refits all feature the Type 726-1, -2, -3, -4, the set of which equips the 052C/D. The 726 EW system continues to evolve, and the Type 075 is the first ship to feature new changes and modifications to the 726 ESM system, or those units can be a new system, and those changes can be passed to future ships.

One of the biggest changes we have seen on the 054A all these years is the growth of SATCOMs on top of the hanger deck. If you take a ship, you can tell if the picture of it is an older one or a more recent one from the growth of the domes at the back. This reflects the explosion of Chinese satellite constellations in the last ten years, and one can imagine what and how the ship is using these satellites. These SATCOMs have been retrofitted into the ships all these years and done in an ad hoc manner, such as the location of one dome isn't the same on another ship, and some ships have different domes than others. The last four 054A also feature a brand new SATCOM array which is also found on the 053H3 refit. With new build 054A, all these mess would have to be standardized, and the SATCOMs will have to be fitted on the ship before it leaves the yard.

One potential change is the Type 364 radar to a new type, like the one you see on the Type 075. The 075 is the first installation of this new radar. If this happens on the 054A, then this new radar can become PLAN's new standard and it may also get fitted on top of the next 052D batch, and become part of the MLU kit for the older ships.
 
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