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Deino

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But they do have experience in other turbofan engines which in principle works the same. And btw they do have a working afterburning turbofan engine the AI-222-25F. "By using a great experience gained in the development of AI-222-25 , AI-222-25F and D-27 engines the AI-9500F with a thrust of 9.5 tons of force is under study for using as integrated in the power plants of light combat airplanes.
You can read their enterprise history here:
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If these well-known and all over the world understood principles could be turned into a working high end turbofan engine so easily, why then do the Indias fail since years, why is there not a single fifth generation engine from Europe ready, why do the Russians and Chines still have issues? Must be something that is not that simple … ANd concerning an enterprise‘s own history, this is well known, but more a marketing brochure than proof of what they can do today especially after the current crises.

What has China to do with whether Ivchenko Progress can meaningfully contribute to the co-development of the TF-141?

China wanted them for trainer/UAV and most of all helicopter engines, surely not for high-end high-thrust turbofan projects.

From what I understand about Ukrainian aero-engine industry is that they have experience and knowledge, but lack funding. A particular design that comes to my mind is the AI-9500F medium thrust engine aimed for the single engine light-weight fighter market that to me still seems in limbo. A Turkish (or from wherever) capital injection can revive Ivchenko Progress' developments. This investment creates certainty, especially after Motor Sich is providing Baykar and TAI engines for the Akinci, MIUS and T-929 (and presumably also cruise missile engines) for the value of $600 million.

This is a matter of controversial discussions but by my understanding they have not. This alleged AI-9500F is a paper-engine since years and nothing happened and even if they had the fundamental understanding of modern engine-cores, the level required for a true fifth generation type and the lack of experience in that certain area cannot be overcome so easily.

Says who? I get the opposite impression especially after last Septembers visit of Erdogan to Russia wherein Turkey and Russia made certain steps in engines, warplanes and especially aircraft engines according to Erdogan:
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It seems Turkey is not going all in but tries to diversify its potential co-developers as the news about Ivchenkno Progress being a potential candidate is from last July as it was then for the first time mentioned in DT magazine issue 108:

I know we again habe contrary standpoints, but what Mr. Erdogan says is IMO not relevant in terms of true capabilities and what Russia says also not. Just look how they still struggle to get the Izdele 30 running for the Su-57 and therefore as long as there is no real prove of the said cooperation and result of the promised things, I rate this as not reliable And more a political statement. By the way, do you really think Russia will accept any deeper cooperation with Turkey while at the same time Turkey sells UCAVs to Ukraine and co-develops other items with Kiev?

Indeed, there is no selling of such technology but co-developing certainly is a possibility.

The problem is, that Turkey starts not from the same level … as such any co-development would either include the transfer of technology they gained via GE and other Western companies or a de facto transfer of technology in order to bring Turkey up to the same level. And that what none of the others would do.

Again, I wish them to succeed, but by all my limited understanding, Turkey‘s will build and field such a fighter and a new engine is far beyond its abilities. But again, we‘ll see.
 

sequ

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If these well-known and all over the world understood principles could be turned into a working high end turbofan engine so easily
Never said this.

why then do the Indias fail since years
From what I see, they lack ambition and have the option to buy off the shelf. If they pressed on with the Kaveri engine, I'm sure they would've sorted out the problems by now.

why is there not a single fifth generation engine from Europe ready
Because Europe skipped the 5th fighter generation and is trying to get to the 6th gen. But they do have some nice engines with TWR half way in between the 4th and 5th gen engines.

why do the Russians and Chines still have issues?
First, they are aiming for engines in the 40000lb class while they've come close to 35000lbs with the AL-31F/WS-10 derivatives. It seems going from 30k-35k lb to 40k lb is a technological bottleneck which only the US has cracked. Secondly, if what I've read is correct, the Russians are a latecomer to SCTB technology. And China suffered from embargoes since '89 hence they are also a latecomer.

And concerning an enterprise‘s own history, this is well known, but more a marketing brochure than proof of what they can do today especially after the current crises.
I rather believe them because I think the issue is in funding. If there is no customer that can fund the engine development then there is no need to develop it. They don't have the money to burn.

China wanted them for trainer/UAV and most of all helicopter engines, surely not for high-end high-thrust turbofan projects.
Thus a moot point.

This is a matter of controversial discussions but by my understanding they have not. This alleged AI-9500F is a paper-engine since years and nothing happened
See answer above.

and even if they had the fundamental understanding of modern engine-cores
How do you know they don't? They have managed to successfully develop the AI-222-25F engine with a TWR of >7 which puts it squarely into 4th gen category.

the level required for a true fifth generation type and the lack of experience in that certain area cannot be overcome so easily.
In the case of Ivchenko Progress with decades of experience with enough funding and a partner that has managed to overcome the biggest obstacle in turbine engine technology, namely SCTB, I would say yes. From what they say:

"Today, SE IVCHENKO-PROGRESS possesses advanced technologies of designing and production. High-effective CAD/CAM designing and 3D calculations carried out on modern computer equipment, turbine single-crystal blades with a high-effective cooling system, compressor high-loaded stages manufactured by using a blisk technology (a disk integral with rotor blades), high-strength powder and granular alloys, composite materials and other advanced technical solutions are used today at our company for the development of new engines with high operating features."

Sounds exactly the kind of expertise what a brand new engine needs, again with the correct amount of funding.

I know we again have contrary standpoints, but what Mr. Erdogan says is IMO not relevant in terms of true capabilities and what Russia says also not
Well, if you don't trust the words of the highest respective political authorities, then I guess nothing can convince you. Why do I even bother with this then?

Just look how they still struggle to get the Izdele 30 running for the Su-57 and therefore as long as there is no real prove of the said cooperation and result of the promised things,
Already answered above about he Izd.30. And no this is not proof of cooperation but mere steps in that direction.

I rate this as not reliable And more a political statement.
You are jumping the gun here and of course it is a political statement made by two heads of state. :rolleyes: What else could it be?:D

By the way, do you really think Russia will accept any deeper cooperation with Turkey while at the same time Turkey sells UCAVs to Ukraine and co-develops other items with Kiev?
Well that's the thing about geo-politics ey? Who would've thought that a decades long NATO ally and partner in the F-35 program would get kicked out so easily while two F-35's were officially delivered? Geopolitics is finicky but Turkey does the universal good thing in this case. Keeping its options open by not putting all its 'co-development' eggs in one basket.

The problem is, that Turkey starts not from the same level
As who?

as such any co-development would either include the transfer of technology they gained via GE and other Western companies or a de facto transfer of technology in order to bring Turkey up to the same level.
Turkey has broken through the 'hot parts' bottleneck, has mastered blisk production and is currently involved heavily in 3D printing/additive manufacturing. If there is indeed a co-development signed with Ivchenko Progress, I would guess it would've to do primarily with the testing infrastructure that Turkey lacks, like large aircraft capable of handling a 30k-35k lb thrust engine. Something which Turkey neither has the experience, nor the aircraft, but countries like Ukraine and Russia do have.

Again, I wish them to succeed, but by all my limited understanding, Turkey‘s will build and field such a fighter and a new engine is far beyond its abilities. But again, we‘ll see.
Like I said, your skepticism has turned into cynicism.
 

sequ

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About turbine engine developments in Turkey, The SSB director Demir made some comments about it during IDEF '21:

"Underlining that engine development is a process in the National Combat Aircraft program, Demir said that the last step in this journey from the development of small engines to Turbojet and Turbofan engines is the National Combat Aircraft Engine: “What we learn in the intermediate stages provides a significant contribution. In particular, we started to gather a material library and material properties rapidly. Developments continue on a broad basis in terms of production technology. We clearly know what Turkey's competencies are in this regard. We have certain assessments about who can do what and to what extent. We also know what needs to be done to move forward. We will proceed gradually. We can see ahead of us, and the next thing will be to work on the production of the product. We will proceed in this fashion, but you will certainly see other products from time to time. Both helicopter engines and cruise missile engines will demonstrate to you where we will go in the national combat aircraft as a sign of the future."

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TL;DR: the people in charge of the turbine projects know exactly what they can and need to proceed forwards. @Deino
 

sequ

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Head of TAI had a conference at IDEF '21 and said the following about the TF-X:

KOTİL underlined that Sensor Fusion, which is one of the key features of the 5th Generation Fighter Aircraft, will literally be implemented in the MMU.
“The MMU will have both an IRST on the nose and an EO sensor below the nose. There will be a real sensor fusion on the aircraft. The MMU/TF-X is a 5th generation fighter jet. Actions are taken step by step in aviation.
As TUSAŞ, our top priority, which we think we achieved, was the correct determination of the outer body design of this aircraft. The most essential parameter of invisibility is the outer body geometry, so we have the ability to fully simulate where incoming radar waves reflect and where they reflect back.
'Load distribution' also had to be made correctly on this aircraft. Therefore, in terms of aircraft structure, subsystems and hydraulic systems, we are on the right track.

”Stating that the MMU will be produced in blocks, KOTİL also said that the PDR (Preliminary Design Review) phase is still ongoing.
“The Air Forces Command as a user, and SSB and TUSAŞ as the project owners come together to make aircraft several Block Configurations. The aim of this is to fly the aircraft with certain features, not with all features, then to gain additional capabilities and afterwards to add new capabilities. We make such block configurations with the direction of the Turkish Air Forces. We should keep in mind that the MMU/TF-X is a 5th Generation fighter jet, similar to that of the U.S.’ F-22, F-35, Russian Su-57 and Chinese J-20. It is in the same class. We will of course add something new on it in time.”

“As you know, our aircraft, which will be rolled out on March 18, 2023, is to be block-I. In the meantime, we'll start the production activities for two more aircraft. Further studies are conducted regarding geometry and other features; the design will change in due course and be improved. This will be changed even after 20 years. While the PDR continues, we continue aircraft construction. We are not following the classical methodology in aircraft construction. Our focus is on the proper body geometry and the forces because these are irreversible. Hydraulic systems , pneumatic systems, fuel systems must be all appropriate; they are also irremediable.”

Temel KOTİL also gave information about TUSAŞ Composite Manufacturing Facility and stated that MMU/TF-X is a completely composite aircraft, except for certain parts: “The MMU/TF-X is a completely composite aircraft. There is also some titanium and aluminum frame inside, in other words there are load-bearing elements, but the remainder is fully composite. The autoclaves in our new composite facility will have a diameter of 6m, large enough for the aircraft whole wing. The wings will be processed in one piece. What matters is not the size of the facilities, but the technology used inside. That's why our aim is to make it a Center of Excellence in the field of composites. To achieve this, we have engineering tools and our own software. In short, we want to be a world brand in composite. We are planning to be inaugurated the composite facilities end of this year.

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The autoclaves at TAI:

 

sequ

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  • "There is an international tender soon. We are preparing ourselves for it. If they buy from us, we will have concluded our first (Hürjet) export in 2022 and made our first delivery in 2025."
It seems that it is the Malaysian tender for a light combat aircraft:

"The bids include India’s Hindustan Aeronautics with the Tejas, a conglomerate of Russian-led companies with the MiG-35, China’s Catic with the L-15, Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) with the FA-50, Turkey Aerospace industries (TAI) with the Hürjet, and Italy’s Leonardo with the M-346."

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Pretty balsy move and they might try to draw Malaysia into not only the Hurjet project but also the TF-X.
 
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pmc

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First, they are aiming for engines in the 40000lb class while they've come close to 35000lbs with the AL-31F/WS-10 derivatives. It seems going from 30k-35k lb to 40k lb is a technological bottleneck which only the US has cracked. Secondly, if what I've read is correct, the Russians are a latecomer to SCTB technology. And China suffered from embargoes since '89 hence they are also a latecomer.
Its not the thrust that matters but creating highly reliable, thrust to weight ratio vectored thrust engines. look at range figures of Su-57 to get some idea of the current engine capability. S-70 is expected 6K range. 2.8ton internal payload.
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2nd rate engineering powers like France and Germany will not even try such challenge. They are always parts suppliers to US firms or US firms supplied them parts. Ukraine has entered into making virtual products aka software backoffice. practically nothing to do with this scale of engine development.
 

sequ

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Its not the thrust that matters but creating highly reliable, thrust to weight ratio vectored thrust engines. look at range figures of Su-57 to get some idea of the current engine capability. S-70 is expected 6K range. 2.8ton internal payload.
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2nd rate engineering powers like France and Germany will not even try such challenge. They are always parts suppliers to US firms or US firms supplied them parts. Ukraine has entered into making virtual products aka software backoffice. practically nothing to do with this scale of engine development.
This is so bad I'm not going to waste my time with your post. Stop polluting this thread with your nonsense.
 

sequ

Junior Member
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Yesterdays delivered Aksungur to the Turkish Navy immediately armed with 12 MAM-L

FCNXR9uWQAMBuu8
 

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