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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
You're mixing up a lot of different things and are not answering my questions or backing up your claims.

SSJ is likely to be more advanced than ARJ-21, but what is the annual production number?

Y-20 is more advanced and modern than IL-76, and China certainly produces more than 15 of them annually now. Any larger deployment of these aircraft or An-124 in Kazakstan is totally irrelevant to your claim.

And, again, I suspect China produces a lot of J-10C's, J-16's, J-15, J-20, and many other military aircraft, more than Russia does its military aircraft. I'm asking you to back up your claims with evidence. You appear to be either unwilling or unable.



What are you even talking about? I already give you that Russia produces more Oil and Gas than China. But it's your claim about electricity generation that I challenged. You just seem to be b**tting your way out.

Let me put it this way: in electricity generation (and energy consumption),
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, simply because China is so much larger of an industrial power than Russia. You need face ground reality, not live in the fantasy claims of Jail Hind land.

View attachment 81175
China hasn't got access to oil and natural gas, means for lot of processes they have to use electricity instead of natural gas or oil.

Based on primary energy production Russia is around 64.28 quadrillion btu vs China 123.59 quadrillion btu.

Consumption is aprox 34 vs 151 .


Per capita energy consuption of Russia as approx twice the chinese one.
 

pmc

Junior Member
Registered Member
You're mixing up a lot of different things and are not answering my questions or backing up your claims.

SSJ is likely to be more advanced than ARJ-21, but what is the annual production number?
The fact there are far more SSJ in operations shows that production is much higher than ARJ. current number will be between 200 to 250.
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The SSJ100 aircraft entered into commercial operation mid-2011. As of July 2017, one hundred SSJ100’s have been delivered. To date, more than 300.000 flight hours have been logged by the SSJ100 flying fleet worldwide.
Y-20 is more advanced and modern than IL-76, and China certainly produces more than 15 of them annually now. Any larger deployment of these aircraft or An-124 in Kazakstan is totally irrelevant to your claim.
The new IL-76 has very high tech engines with new wing.. not the PS90 from 90s. it is digitally created from ground up after practical experience. only this new Air frame cockpit can take the high radiation power of bigger AESA antenna for A-100. you really need to study what is advanced and the total capability of airframe. Not even US can attempt this size of modifications on C-17.
with flip of switch 15 IL-76 ready.
.

And, again, I suspect China produces a lot of J-10C's, J-16's, J-15, J-20, and many other military aircraft, more than Russia does its military aircraft. I'm asking you to back up your claims with evidence. You appear to be either unwilling or unable.
where is your evidence China produce more fighter planes? and technological complexity and capability of those planes.
What are you even talking about? I already give you that Russia produces more Oil and Gas than China. But it's your claim about electricity generation that I challenged. You just seem to be b**tting your way out.

Let me put it this way: in electricity generation (and energy consumption),
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, simply because China is so much larger of an industrial power than Russia. You need face ground reality, not live in the fantasy claims of Jail Hind land.
it is not the quantity of products but the complexity and control over supply chain define engineering base. there is reason that high tech Korea and Japanese automobiles are cheaper in Russia.
i made claim regarding total energy production. there is no evidence that your figure publish figure will be correct. as just this year electricity exports were more than double. it shows there are alot surplus redundancy at each of nodes in the system. whether its in Europe or Asia.
Russia wealth fund only increase in value if dollar value of crude is greater than $44 per barrel. first $44 dollar does not go there.
in year 2020 crude prices practically negative or low on avg. but how come $50b of Wealth fund becomes $200b wealth fund by end of 2021. It need alot more crude exports or other unexplained sources. Russia does not invest like Norway in western stock markets.



1642109176765.png
 

weig2000

Senior Member
This discussion starts because you made the claim "Russia aviation industry produce much more than Chinese aviation industry." I asked you to provide evidence to back up your claim. I broke the aviation industry into civilian and military so we can examine your evidence better.

Keep in mind of the subject. Don't bring in a lot of irrelevant or less relevant stuffs to divert or confuse people.

The fact there are far more SSJ in operations shows that production is much higher than ARJ. current number will be between 200 to 250.

Is this 200 to 250 annual product number or cumulative production number? Provide the evidence and we can move on from this one.

The new IL-76 has very high tech engines with new wing.. not the PS90 from 90s. it is digitally created from ground up after practical experience. only this new Air frame cockpit can take the high radiation power of bigger AESA antenna for A-100. you really need to study what is advanced and the total capability of airframe. Not even US can attempt this size of modifications on C-17.
with flip of switch 15 IL-76 ready.
.

Again, let's not dive into technical details, that's distracting from the subject of discussion. I'm asking for annual production number of IL-76. You said it's 15. I said Y20 and its variants has more than 15 per year currently. Check out the satellite picture in the H-20 thread to get some sense.

where is your evidence China produce more fighter planes? and technological complexity and capability of those planes.

You made the claim, the burden is on you to provide Russia's military or fighter aircraft annual numbers. What are they?

Since you have been hanging around SDF for a while, you should have some sense of China's annual fighter aircraft production numbers. For example, in terms of J-10C, J-20, J-16/J-16D/J-15/J-15B.

As for technological complexity and capability of those planes, again, this deviates from the subject of discussion. I don't want you to indulge into another diverting BS. At SDF, we all have some familiarity with the technological complexity and capability. We can compare J-20 vs Su-57, J-16/J-16D vs all Russia Flanker variants, or J-10C vs Mig-29 etc. That should be for another topic of discussion (Russia needs to produce a viable fighter aircraft AESA radar first to take care of all those failed foreign Su-35 sales deals, BTW).

it is not the quantity of products but the complexity and control over supply chain define engineering base. there is reason that high tech Korea and Japanese automobiles are cheaper in Russia.
i made claim regarding total energy production. there is no evidence that your figure publish figure will be correct. as just this year electricity exports were more than double. it shows there are alot surplus redundancy at each of nodes in the system. whether its in Europe or Asia.
Russia wealth fund only increase in value if dollar value of crude is greater than $44 per barrel. first $44 dollar does not go there.
in year 2020 crude prices practically negative or low on avg. but how come $50b of Wealth fund becomes $200b wealth fund by end of 2021. It need alot more crude exports or other unexplained sources. Russia does not invest like Norway in western stock markets.



View attachment 81177

You don't have the basic understanding of electricity generation, which are very public and reliable figures. You don't even have a sense of order of magnitude of the respective electricity generation numbers in Russia and China respectively. You're just BSing away throwing all these irrelevant numbers.

A very, very, very basic question: what is Russia's annual electricity production? You include electricity in your original claim. Answer the question. Don't dodge.

If you can't answer the above questions straightforwardly without BSing a lot of irrelevant stuffs, I consider you have no clue of what you're talking about. In that case, I'll stop engaging you on this subject.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
I love it.

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“I’m not going to respond to bluster in the public commentary,” National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan told reporters on Thursday. “If Russia were to move in that direction, we would deal with it decisively.”

Read more at:
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...
A senior-level official of the Russian Ministry of Defense quoted by the U.S.-Cuba Trade and Economic Council estimated that a “robust” presence in Cuba would bring millions in spending for infrastructure upgrades of airports and ports. The Russian official estimated that the economic impact of having up to 2,500 Russian civilian and military forces in Cuba could bring $100 million annually to the Cuban government. Russia could also pay an additional fee to Cuban authorities as it did in the past for hosting the Lourdes intelligence listening post near Havana.

Read more at:
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I really love it.


I am sure the USA will be happy to see nuclear tipped ballistic missiles and Tu-160 bombers in Cuba, to support all country decision about military alliances and they choices to station foreign military units and equip,ment on they soil.
 

weig2000

Senior Member
China hasn't got access to oil and natural gas, means for lot of processes they have to use electricity instead of natural gas or oil.

Based on primary energy production Russia is around 64.28 quadrillion btu vs China 123.59 quadrillion btu.

Consumption is aprox 34 vs 151 .


Per capita energy consuption of Russia as approx twice the chinese one.

I already said Russia produces more Oil & Gas than China for obvious reasons in my first response. This is not really contentious.

I was asking him about Russia electricity production figure, which he included it in his claim.

Based on your figures, Russia's primary energy production is about half of China. That's enough to refute his claims, even though I don't know how accurate they're.
 

Overbom

Colonel
Registered Member
I love it.

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...

I really love it.


I am sure the USA will be happy to see nuclear tipped ballistic missiles and Tu-160 bombers in Cuba, to support all country decision about military alliances and they choices to station foreign military units and equip,ment on they soil.
Sounds like a good move. The hegemon is wounded

The more fronts China + Russia + Iran open against it, the more its resources are stretched and attention diverted away from the important matters.

There is already the Asia-Pacific front, the Europe front, the Middle East front.
And now the Latin/Central America fronts will be opened
Maybe also time for Kim to start creating troubles

Russia and China just need to ensure that they cover each other backs and the rest will be ok
 

pmc

Junior Member
Registered Member
Is this 200 to 250 annual product number or cumulative production number? Provide the evidence and we can move on from this one.
200 to 250 will be total Produciton of SSJ. first 100 number reached in July 2017. its right there on manufacture website.
when is first 100 ARJ reached?
They expect 30 deliveries in 2021.
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Again, let's not dive into technical details, that's distracting from the subject of discussion. I'm asking for annual production number of IL-76. You said it's 15. I said Y20 and its variants has more than 15 per year currently. Check out the satellite picture in the H-20 thread to get some sense.
The scale of operations of IL-76 in Africa and Middleast is such. that it is very reasonable to assume that supply chains are very robust. it is alot of stress on airframe to use it like passenger aircraft. older airframes will get retired and newer one will be inducted.
Even Soviets didnot use the airlift for such distances and different climates. it is actual presence on ground.
is there satellite picture of all the Y-20 parked at one place?

You made the claim, the burden is on you to provide Russia's military or fighter aircraft annual numbers. What are they?

Since you have been hanging around SDF for a while, you should have some sense of China's annual fighter aircraft production numbers. For example, in terms of J-10C, J-20, J-16/J-16D/J-15/J-15B.
you have any evidence of total production rate. I show you evidence that in Syria they built so many hardened shelters with dual runways and planes still parked outside. and they are ordering more than 300 shelter in 2021 for newer aircraft
As for technological complexity and capability of those planes, again, this deviates from the subject of discussion. I don't want you to indulge into another diverting BS. At SDF, we all have some familiarity with the technological complexity and capability. We can compare J-20 vs Su-57, J-16/J-16D vs all Russia Flanker variants, or J-10C vs Mig-29 etc. That should be for another topic of discussion (Russia needs to produce a viable fighter aircraft AESA radar first to take care of all those failed foreign Su-35 sales deals, BTW).
It is always the value of production. A350 cost $400m. while A320 cost $70m. which one has more value?.
viable AESA radar?. i am not sure where you get this information. AESA radar is already in helicopter gunships, ant sub chopers, UAVs, Space radars, AWACS.
what is radar capability of this chopper to use this missile?.
1642120733759.png
You don't have the basic understanding of electricity generation, which are very public and reliable figures. You don't even have a sense of order of magnitude of the respective electricity generation numbers in Russia and China respectively. You're just BSing away throwing all these irrelevant numbers.
i have very good understanding of electric generation and independent distribution nodes with Grid. you just cannot have surplus transfer from one place to another that are 7000km apart. prices are reflected in complex industrial products. as they are the end result of cheap surplus electricity.
A very, very, very basic question: what is Russia's annual electricity production? You include electricity in your original claim. Answer the question. Don't dodge.

If you can't answer the above questions straightforwardly without BSing a lot of irrelevant stuffs, I consider you have no clue of what you're talking about. In that case, I'll stop engaging you on this subject.
Russia annual electric production is as opaque as its oil/gas production. you just need to look at National welfare fund spending and excess accumulation when oil prices higher than $44. the jump in 2021 is too big despite spending from it since 2020 when oil prices basically negative or very low.

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weig2000

Senior Member
i have very good understanding of electric generation and independent distribution nodes with Grid. you just cannot have surplus transfer from one place to another that are 7000km apart. prices are reflected in complex industrial products. as they are the end result of cheap surplus electricity.

Russia annual electric production is as opaque as its oil/gas production. you just need to look at National welfare fund spending and excess accumulation when oil prices higher than $44. the jump in 2021 is too big despite spending from it since 2020 when oil prices basically negative or very low.

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You're still lumping together a lot of stuffs and mixing up different things. Let's first separate your claims into two parts: aviation and energy. Otherwise, you're making this discussion unmanageable. In this post, we'll compare the energy production between the two countries using data from
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. The most recent data are from 2019.

1642131616179.png

China and Russia data are from
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and
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respectively.

Below is the definition of the above terms related to energy production. For more details, see
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.

1642131754770.png

From the table above, we can tell that Russia is an Energy Production superpower, as most people know this intuitively. But still China produces more energy than Russia (ratio: 1.7773). Russia exports a lot of energy.

When we move to Total Primary Energy Supply, the difference is much larger (ratio: 4.3866). That's because China imports a lot of energy while Russia exports a lot.

Finally, when we look at the Electricity FInal Consumption, China simply dwarfs Russia (ratio: 7.1259).

There is nothing wrong with Russia produces and consumes far less energy than China. China simply is the world's largest industrial power by far. Russia is also a very large energy producer and consumer, just not as large as China. That's all. In fact, same thing can be said between China and the US.

I hope you don't make any more excuses about your wrong claims at least about energy. We all make mistakes; no big deal.
 

weig2000

Senior Member
Lets now turn into aviation. Before we examine your figures, let's set the ground rules. We don't talk about cumulative or total production numbers or existing inventory. You would be dragging a lot of historical production numbers into the mix. IL-76 has what? over 50 years' history while Y-20 only began production in 2016/2017. We're talking about current aviation industry. Soviet Union/Russia had a long aviation history; China is more of a newcomer. There is no dispute about that.

We are also not going to dive deep into the technology details, particularly when the technology levels are more or less similar. In that case, let's just say IL-76 and Y-20 are in the same class for example. Otherwise, this discussion is going nowhere.

200 to 250 will be total Produciton of SSJ. first 100 number reached in July 2017. its right there on manufacture website.
when is first 100 ARJ reached?
They expect 30 deliveries in 2021.
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Again, total production number over a longer period does not count. SSJ is in existence longer than ARJ-21. We only look at the most recent annual production.

ARJ-21 had 27 deliveries in 2020 and 17 deliveries in 2021, see the complete list
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. So based on your 30 deliveries of SSJ in 2021, SSJ is slightly ahead, but not much.

The scale of operations of IL-76 in Africa and Middleast is such. that it is very reasonable to assume that supply chains are very robust. it is alot of stress on airframe to use it like passenger aircraft. older airframes will get retired and newer one will be inducted.
Even Soviets didnot use the airlift for such distances and different climates. it is actual presence on ground.
is there satellite picture of all the Y-20 parked at one place?

Again, we're not talking about robust or stress or anything like that. We're also not talking about scale of operations of IL-76. Even China has 20-30 IL-76. We're talking about annual production rate. Just provide the evidence of IL-76 production rate. Or you don't really know.

I simply don't think Russia's current large transport production rate can match China's. And the gap will be increasing as China ramps up production of Y-20, YU-20 in the coming years.

you have any evidence of total production rate. I show you evidence that in Syria they built so many hardened shelters with dual runways and planes still parked outside. and they are ordering more than 300 shelter in 2021 for newer aircraft

This is irrelevant.

It is always the value of production. A350 cost $400m. while A320 cost $70m. which one has more value?.
viable AESA radar?. i am not sure where you get this information. AESA radar is already in helicopter gunships, ant sub chopers, UAVs, Space radars, AWACS.
what is radar capability of this chopper to use this missile?.

Irrelevant.

And, China's current production rates of 4th and 5th generation fighter aircraft (J-10C, J-16/J-16D/J-15, J-20) are larger than Russia's corresponding rates. The reason is very simple: China has much larger defense spending and is in a rapidly expansion mode. The gap will increase.

Final notes: I'm not bashing Russia or anything like. Russia is doing fine. Just want to set the facts right.
 

pmc

Junior Member
Registered Member
You're still lumping together a lot of stuffs and mixing up different things. Let's first separate your claims into two parts: aviation and energy. Otherwise, you're making this discussion unmanageable. In this post, we'll compare the energy production between the two countries using data from
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. The most recent data are from 2019.
I am very clear about Aviation Industry size /operations and Energy industry size/financials.
Just this one picture shows 6 SSJ inside factory. a. its big factory. i am sure there more in front.
and they are creating completely new SSJ-R.
IAEA or OPEC it is irrelevant as Russia is not going to share anything with them that remotely close to reality. this how market is manipulated but what cannot change is the size of National Welfare fund that is straight mathematical calculations. of excess funds deposited.

1642134655879.png
 

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