Risk of Natural disasters vs Military facilities

He's



So, you two characters obviously know more than the US Military about how to conduct operations on the Florida Panhandle?? Tyndall AFB is headquarters for the 325 Fighter Wing, which includes an F-22 Fighter Squadron and an F-22 Training Squadron? Tyndall is home to those operations because of its proximity to a very large active live weapons range and excellent flying weather... In fact this summer while on vacation in Panama City Beach, I observed several F-22 two ships flying down the beach.. its a beautiful place.

However Tyndall AFB was a direct hit by Hurricane Michael, as each of you well know, F-22 availability is a huge problem at present, with around 50% availability at any given time, in fact General Mattis is so pissed, and has issued orders across the board for ALL Fighter Aircraft availability to be increased to at least 80%....

That's NEVER going to happen for the F-22, as strong as President Trumps response has been to rectify 8 years of BHO's shameful disdain and neglect, and GWB's lack of money to maintain those airplanes, they have ALL been "beat on", and are spread thin to cover operational demands.... to add perspective to that picture, each of those early airplanes are basically "hand built", requiring a great deal of fabrication and fitting to maintain the F-22's "best on the planet" L/O characteristics?

As a result of living in a "real world" where 9/10s of the population and our political leadership don't give a rat's ass about defense, and certainly only support our military grudgingly, although professing great knowledge and empathy for the US Military?? they love to criticize and complain, sadly many of our lower echelon military fall into that same category? "yes, the troops have always loved to bitch and moan!"

So having two dozen F-22's left behind in our "hardened hangars" is a sad fact of life?? its NOT about poor leadership or maintenance, its about doing the impossible with damn near nothing, the F-22 is now an "old airplane", it needs lots and lots of love and money,,, thank God the President and Gen Mattis are making that a priority, but years and years of conscious and intentional neglect by politicians who have to "give away money to be re-elected", have hurt our best efforts to maintain the world's best fighter aircraft.....

so cheap shots, from individuals who should be very well aware of the political reality, and the money required to "maintain readiness" as well as the consequences of NOT being ready?? and who directly benefit, and are no doubt safer with the US Military keeping you safe? and doing their "damndest" to protect your freedoms,,, well, that doesn't sit well with me, in fact it "pisses me off", A LOT!

I get my checkbook out, twice or three times a year and pay my taxes,,,,, I want my money spent supporting and maintaining the best and most honorable military on the Planet?? and if you're not paying taxes to the US GOVT, or even if you are?? what you ought to be doing? is supporting and encouraging our members of congress and senate to support the President, as he works very hard to bring this aircraft, and this military "back from the brink".... its going to take a hell of a lot of hard work and money to accomplish this task??

and if you have the honor of being able to vote, you ought to support the team that has put more into defending this country, and making her safe than any other team in the last 50-60 years,,, that gentlemen, is what we ought to be doing.

and Tyndall AFB, will be rebuilt, and those Raptor's will be returned to flight status, ASAP, that is whats going to happen next. God Bless you, God Bless the US Military, and God Bless the USA!

and yes Gentlemen, there will no doubt be another Hurricane, and the price paid, and lessons learned will in the short term be reminders, to those who really care, of what it takes to keep this beautiful land free!

AFB
great post, Brother

my whole point has been there's an inadequate protection of the Raptors down at Tyndall against WHATEVER hurricane may come
 

anzha

Senior Member
Registered Member
So, you two characters obviously know more than the US Military about how to conduct operations on the Florida Panhandle??



First off, I am not going to speak for Jura. He has his own opinions, some I agree with, some I do not.

Secondly, may I ask pointedly, if politely, have you been in or are currently in the military? If not, have you worked with the military as a contractor?

I've done the latter. I would have done the former, but, alas, I have some physical traits that prevented it. That said, my family has been in the military (and is in the military) for a long time. I have seen, I have experienced and I have even participated in how the US military is run.

Please, STOP assuming. And, please, stop the ad hominem. Take a breath.

I want the US military to function well.

Thirdly, I am well aware of why the F-22s were not flown out and why the hangars were as they were: no hurricanes of that force had gone through there, AFAIK, at that strength. The hangars present would have handled one of the historical hurricanes. Michael also went from a Cat 3 to Cat 5 in a shocking short time. Given the costs, I can understand why there were no cat 5 proof hangars there.

However, given the last 15 years of hurricanes, it would have been a good thing to do anyways. The F-22 is literally irreplaceable at this juncture. Putting in hardened shelters seems like a no brainer, but one that's not cheap.

Additionally, you do realize who ACTUALLY makes the budget in the US, right? A President proposes the budget. Congress actually writes it and enacts it. The Republicans have been in charge of Congress since 2010 and Obama vetoed a total of 12 pieces of legislation. The same number as Bush. And one third of what Clinton did. At any time, Congress could have passed more funding for maintenance on the aircraft for readiness and it would have been unlikely they would have faced a veto. They did not pass that budget incorporating the necessary funds.

Likewise, the sequestration was the Budget Control Act of 2011 advocated for and pushed through by the Republicans after they took back control of Congress. They wanted it to force reduction on the budget to force a reduction in the deficit. Or so they said. They required it in exchange for raising the borrowing limit for the US, so we would not default on bonds and loans. It was a game of chicken and they won. Then the sequester kicked in and...

Things got worse.

There are a great many things to be angry with Obama with, foreign policy, defense and otherwise. However, we don't live in a dictatorship. In our system, a President can't just wave his hands and make things better or worse. His (or some day, when the right one comes, her) actions are limited by Congress. Trump won't magically make things happen either. SecDef Mattis may or may not fix things. We will see. The President did say Mattis was (paraphrasing) sorta a democrat. He may not be around much longer with comments like that.

Returning to specifically the Tyndall situation. Originally, the USAF brass stated *4* aircraft were left behind. Lo and behold, it was 17. They knew that number from the get go and yet...inaccurate statement. Why state otherwise? Lockheed has flown out engineers to assess the damage done. We will know, eventually, how much it will cost to fix those 17. I sincerely hope it's very low. I doubt it. But! I have been wrong before and will be again. That said, the brass already has made inaccurate statements. Given the sensitivity of how many F-22s are functioning, why are you NOT suspicious about what they say?

Any individual in power, whether the military brass or politicians, need to be watched and kept honest. Power corrupts and temptation is very, very real. Few people are truly Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.

So, stop getting in a huff and ranting at us. Show us we are actually wrong. The way to do so is to have the actual budget costs of the Raptors being returned to service and actually being returned to service. Rah-rah rants are not going to cut it. Real, hard dollars, data and dates will.

PS. Before you think it, life long Republican.

PPS Just stating again, for the record, not speaking for Jura.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
well I can imagine the Pentagon will say it was once-in-lifetime event or something

anyway check my 'green Thai curry' on Facebook LOL the meat was turkey, the potatoes soaked in the sauce just as I wanted

10-4 sounds good, I just grilled a steak for the dog and I, or I guess I should have said, me and the dog! I fixed "Taco Soup" for the bank ladies yesterday, my wife is head teller, and her boss was out on medical, and on of their former faithful long time managers had come back to help my wife manage things... yesterday was her last day of TDY, so my wife stated that she should have made "taco soup" as she was leaving for work.....

Well, I've never made taco soup, but I got on the internet and refined my recipe, it turned out very nice, and our former manager was very tickled that I had made them all taco soup, one our daughter's and I joined them for lunch...

you have an official AFB apology due to you sir, and I have already extended one to our brother Anzha,,, he's also a budget wonk like you Bub! LOL
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
First off, I am not going to speak for Jura. He has his own opinions, some I agree with, some I do not.

Secondly, may I ask pointedly, if politely, have you been in or are currently in the military? If not, have you worked with the military as a contractor?

I've done the latter. I would have done the former, but, alas, I have some physical traits that prevented it. That said, my family has been in the military (and is in the military) for a long time. I have seen, I have experienced and I have even participated in how the US military is run.

Please, STOP assuming. And, please, stop the ad hominem. Take a breath.

I want the US military to function well.

Thirdly, I am well aware of why the F-22s were not flown out and why the hangars were as they were: no hurricanes of that force had gone through there, AFAIK, at that strength. The hangars present would have handled one of the historical hurricanes. Michael also went from a Cat 3 to Cat 5 in a shocking short time. Given the costs, I can understand why there were no cat 5 proof hangars there.

However, given the last 15 years of hurricanes, it would have been a good thing to do anyways. The F-22 is literally irreplaceable at this juncture. Putting in hardened shelters seems like a no brainer, but one that's not cheap.

Additionally, you do realize who ACTUALLY makes the budget in the US, right? A President proposes the budget. Congress actually writes it and enacts it. The Republicans have been in charge of Congress since 2010 and Obama vetoed a total of 12 pieces of legislation. The same number as Bush. And one third of what Clinton did. At any time, Congress could have passed more funding for maintenance on the aircraft for readiness and it would have been unlikely they would have faced a veto. They did not pass that budget incorporating the necessary funds.

Likewise, the sequestration was the Budget Control Act of 2011 advocated for and pushed through by the Republicans after they took back control of Congress. They wanted it to force reduction on the budget to force a reduction in the deficit. Or so they said. They required it in exchange for raising the borrowing limit for the US, so we would not default on bonds and loans. It was a game of chicken and they won. Then the sequester kicked in and...

Things got worse.

There are a great many things to be angry with Obama with, foreign policy, defense and otherwise. However, we don't live in a dictatorship. In our system, a President can't just wave his hands and make things better or worse. His (or some day, when the right one comes, her) actions are limited by Congress. Trump won't magically make things happen either. SecDef Mattis may or may not fix things. We will see. The President did say Mattis was (paraphrasing) sorta a democrat. He may not be around much longer with comments like that.

Returning to specifically the Tyndall situation. Originally, the USAF brass stated *4* aircraft were left behind. Lo and behold, it was 17. They knew that number from the get go and yet...inaccurate statement. Why state otherwise? Lockheed has flown out engineers to assess the damage done. We will know, eventually, how much it will cost to fix those 17. I sincerely hope it's very low. I doubt it. But! I have been wrong before and will be again. That said, the brass already has made inaccurate statements. Given the sensitivity of how many F-22s are functioning, why are you NOT suspicious about what they say?

Any individual in power, whether the military brass or politicians, need to be watched and kept honest. Power corrupts and temptation is very, very real. Few people are truly Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.

So, stop getting in a huff and ranting at us. Show us we are actually wrong. The way to do so is to have the actual budget costs of the Raptors being returned to service and actually being returned to service. Rah-rah rants are not going to cut it. Real, hard dollars, data and dates will.

PS. Before you think it, life long Republican.

PPS Just stating again, for the record, not speaking for Jura.

I'm the Air Force Brat, I think that is fairly clear, and very, very appreciative of those who serve in the military, and those who serve as civilian contractors.

I'm glad Jura has a Brother named Anzha, you guys sound like the "Honey Badger",,, we've raised 9 kids, amazing, but no matter how flush the checking acct may appear? she's trying to "put the ka-bosh" on ANY unnecessary expenses such as cars, airplanes, guns,, I told her I was thinking of going in with my little brother on his plane, she told me in NO UNCERTAIN terms that I did NOT have airplane money!!! LOL

Anyway, Here is your first official "Air Force Brat apology!" I do trust our Air Force Leadership, those who head fighter wings have to be fighters pilot and outstanding humans to join the USAF upper echelon! My Dad was a Lt. Col when he retired, he was to be promoted to full bird, and assigned to be the "Air Attache" to the American Ambassador to Chile. My Mom really wanted to go, but the old man retired instead, stating, the communist are going to over throw the Govt, they did, and we moved back to the farm!,,, LOL, I hated it, my DAD was offered sever flying positions, but wanted to get back to farming!

Anyway, I am a pilot, and I do particularly love the F-22, so I'm hoping that NGAD might actually turn out to be an F-22/F-35 hybrid! I'd highly recommend making those incremental changes that would keep us living in the real world!
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Just to point this out, Hurricane force 5 is basically the end of the world where ever they go.
I compare it to a nuclear weapons strike.
It's not easy cheap or even practical to build hangers to that rating on every base.
Even civilian buildings if a smaller size are complicated to build to that rating with limited actual proof that they can take it.
 

anzha

Senior Member
Registered Member
Anyway, I am a pilot, and I do particularly love the F-22, so I'm hoping that NGAD might actually turn out to be an F-22/F-35 hybrid! I'd highly recommend making those incremental changes that would keep us living in the real world!

well, we'll see what they do. The NGAD is going to be different than the F-22: it needs far, far longer range than the F-22 can manage, even a slightly enlarged one like Lockheed was pushing for the Japanese (which the Japanese have rejected in favor of a new homegrown aircraft due to the costs). The F-22 was designed with fighting in Europe in mind against the Soviet Union. The Pacific has far, far greater ranges involved and even with the KC-Z/KC-46 combo, the aircraft just need to get farther.

Also, the tools of the trade are changing. Assuming lasers come to fruition in the next three to five years as they appear to be, dogfighting is dead. Like really dead. the pointer tracker systems can lock on and track almost any target once they have a radar or I suppose lidar cue. If you're within 30 km, and the laser can be brought to bare, you're toast. Note: the same laser can be 'piped' to multiple PTS, so you can (if you design it in place) put it dorsal and ventral. Maneuverability won't matter.

To counter that, you're going to want to have weapons that can engage at wildly rapid speeds and way, way beyond the visual horizon. It will also mean needing a really deep magazine: your first shots are probably not going to be kills.

IMO, the F-22 will be the last classic fighter. Think more stealthy F-111, or something mind way between the F-111 and the B-1B, not F-22.

Just IMO. I've been wrong before and will be again, but my chits are on birds rather different than today.
 
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