09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Chinese Sub Commanders May Get AIHelp for Decision-Making
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  • BY ELSA B. KANIAADJUNCT FELLOW WITH THE TECHNOLOGY AND NATIONAL SECURITY PROGRAM AT CNAS
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But can a recent news report be taken at face value? A CNAS fellow unpacks the intersection of Chinese tech, messaging, and naval power.

What can we learn from a recent news report that China is seeking to develop a nuclear submarine with “AI-augmented brainpower” to give the PLA Navy an “upper hand in battle”?

A
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quotes a “senior scientist involved with the programme” as saying there is a project underway to update the computer systems on PLANnuclear submarines with an AI decision-support system with “its own thoughts” that would reduce commanding officers’ workload and mental burden. The article describes plans for AI to take on “thinking” functions on nuclear subs, which could include, at a basic level, interpreting and answering signals picked up by sonar, through the use of convolutional neural networks.

Given the sensitivity of such a project, it is notable that a researcher working on the program is apparently discussing these issues with an English-language Hong Kong-based newspaper
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Chinese tech giant Alibaba. That alone suggests that powers-that-be in Beijing intend such a story to receive attention. The release of this information should be considered critically – and might even be characterized as either a deliberate, perhaps ‘deterrent’ signal of China’s advances and/or ‘technological propaganda’ that hypes and overstates current research and development. Necessarily, any analysis based on such sourcing is difficult to confirm – and must thus be caveated heavily.

Nonetheless, there is at least a basic consistency between the article as reported and the apparent direction of China’s pursuit of
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, which has emerged as a top priority in PLA defense innovation. In addition, certain known lines of Chinese effort do make this piece seem plausible, including advances in submarine development undertaken by the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation, or CSIC. At a basic level, the application of machine learning to acoustic signal processing has been an active area of research in China for a number of years. As such, it seems feasible, and even unsurprising, that the PLAwould look to use machine learning to help sub crews and their commanders interpret the scarcity and complexity of information available in the undersea domain. “In the past, the technology was too distant from application, but recently a lot of progress has been achieved,” one researcher at the Institute of Acoustics of the Chinese Academy of Sciences told the SCMP. “There seems to be hope around the corner.”

As China continues to develop more advanced nuclear-powered and nuclear-armed submarines, the PLAN will likely remain focused on such new concepts and capabilities for this force. For instance, according to Wu Chongjian (吴崇建), a chief submarine designer at CSIC, China’s next-generation conventional submarines
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quantum communications, quantum navigation, and intelligent unmanned vehicle technologies. Concurrently, the PLAN is also pursuing the development and deployment of unmanned underwater vehicles, such as the
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(海翼), which could support submarines engaged in military missions. In the future, the PLAN might seek to use UUVs in conjunction with submarines in an attempt to advance its anti-submarine warfare capabilities and shift the undersea balance. In this context, as the deep sea battlespace becomes even more complex and contested, the use of AI to support commanders for at least acoustic signal processing and underwater target recognition in the near term – and perhaps providing more direct decision support as the technology matures – seems to be a plausible, and perhaps quite impactful, application.

However, the potential existence of such a PLA program also raises critical questions. The SCMP article does not specify or clarify whether these future AI systems would be used only on nuclear-powered SSNs or also on nuclear-armed SSBNs, such as the Type 096 that is under development. Rather sensationally, the Chinese Academy of Sciences researcher quoted in the piece goes on to say, “If the [AI] system started to have its own way of thinking, we may have a runaway submarine with enough nuclear arsenals to destroy a continent.” Certainly, it is too soon to be alarmed that the PLA might intend to put “superintelligence” on nuclear subs or unleash ‘killer AI with nukes’ upon the world. However, this ambiguity raises the question of whether and under what conditions the PLA might decide to use AI in ISR or decision support systems that directly support its nuclear arsenal, whether those under the control of the PLA Rocket Force or its
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. The lack of transparency – and resulting uncertainties – are concerning, given the potential impact of AI on cyber, nuclear, and strategic stability.

Although there have also been concerns that the PLA – and other authoritarian militaries that are disinclined to trust human personnel – may choose to take humans entirely “out of the loop,” that does not seem especially likely in this scenario. It is true that PLA writings and statements on these issues do not display the visceral negative reaction that U.S. commanders seem to have to the notion of doing so. Certain PLA strategists have also speculated about the potential for a “singularity” on the future battlefield, a point at which the human mind simply cannot keep pace with the speed and complexity of combat, necessitating that AI agents take on greater responsibility in command. In this case, the unnamed researcher reportedly emphasized, “There must be a human hand on every critical post. This is for safety redundancy.” For the time being, keeping at least a basic level of human involvement seems to be most practical and effective option. However, that alone is not a guarantee of safety.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(cont)
As the PLA seeks to use AI to improve its C4ISR capabilities, there is a risk that it may rely too heavily upon or overestimate the supposed superiority of machine intelligence and judgment over that of humans. Although highly automated systems might seem, at a superficial level, to promise to lessen the burdens upon commanders, past experience, including with the
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, has demonstrated that such complex systems can, in fact, create greater challenges for their operators, necessitating nuanced understanding of their advantages and limitations, often through specialized training. In addition, the dynamic of “automation bias” can cause compromised decision-making when humans start to rely too heavily on automated systems, at the expense of their own judgment.

Inherently, the employment of AI on the future battlefield will create new and unexpected
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s. Those likely include potential malfunction, adversarial interference, or unexpected emergent behaviors. The unnamed scientist quoted in this piece supposedly emphasized, “What the military cares most about is not fancy features. What they care most is the thing does not screw up amid the heat of a battle.” However, that may be much easier said than done, which raises questions of how and to what extent such systems would be tested for safety and assurance. At this stage in its development, AI remains brittle and very vulnerable to
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or manipulation. If the PLA chooses to introduce AI systems in to its conventional submarines, let alone nuclear, submarines, there will thus inevitably be not only new capabilities but also new risks. As major militaries start to rely more upon AI systems, this will also place a premium upon the development of “counter-AI” capabilities to disrupt them.

And even though the veracity of the SCMP’s account cannot be verified at this point, it is clear that the PLA is prioritizing pursuit of decision superiority through AI technologies. PLA strategists have recognized—particularly since AlphaGo’s defeat of Lee Sedol in the spring of 2016—that AI could confer a critical advantage through its ability to devise tactics and strategems that even the most talented humans cannot equal. In particular, AlphaGo triumphed over Lee Sedol – and later Chinese champion Ke Jie – through its capability to anticipate all potential options and trajectories in the game of Go, which PLA thinkers see as at least roughly analogous to warfare, and formulate moves that can be novel, even superior to those humans have invented in thousands of years of playing the game. Since then,
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has demonstrated even more astonishing capabilities, beating the original AlphaGo 100 to nothing. Although the battlefield is considerably more complex than the game, the PLA seems to aspire to create an ‘AlphaGo for warfare’ that might support commanders – or perhaps someday even replace them, some have speculated.

While the PLA’s pursuit of decision support systems is not new, the capabilities to develop “intelligentized” (智能化) command decision-making capabilities may advance considerably with today’s rapid progress in AI technologies. Indeed, the PLA’s pursuit of “intelligentized” command decision-making capabilities appears to be a high-level priority, even highlighted in an authoritative article authored by the Central Military Commission Joint Staff Department. Beyond submarines, the PLA also appears to be working on the development of systems to augment command decision-making and, at the tactical level, for the pilots of fighter jets. The use of AI to enhance ISR – whether of video and imagery intelligence, as in
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, or in acoustic signal processing for submarines, as the PLA seems to intend – will be early and impactful applications. In the future, with the advent of AI in “intelligentized” (智能化) warfare, the capability to leverage AI-enabled support to command decision-making could become critical to achieving decision superiority and dominance, in the deep seas and beyond.
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  • Elsa B. Kania is an Adjunct Fellow with the Technology and National Security Program at the Center for a New American Security, where she focuses on Chinese defense innovation and emerging technologies. She is the author of “Battlefield Singularity: Artificial Intelligence, Military Revolution, ...
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
On the sideline of national congress meeting a Submarine noise expert give a statement,Basically he is talking about pipe vibration that will leak thru the hull. So his solution it to make the pipe flexible I believe now adays it is possible to accurately predict pipe vibration noise using computer simulation

"We are now breaking through the technology, the noise of the nuclear submarine in China declined dramatically around 2025 , The performance also reaches world leading level "
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...From Oedo
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Here is google translation quite decent translation

He Lin: He let the Chinese submarine quietly
2018-03-05 00:00:00 Source: Science and Technology Daily Author: newspaper reporter Sun Yusong

"My biggest wish is to work hard to do submarine noise control and hide our submarines." After the day's panel discussion ended on the afternoon of March 4, the new CPPCC member and academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, He Lin, told reporters.

"Today, socialism with Chinese characteristics has entered a new era and national defense and army building have also entered a new era. Under the strategic development of military and civilian integration, China's naval armament, especially strategic weapons such as nuclear submarines, will usher in a new era of rapid development." As He Lin, a member of the military, now pays more attention to the integration of civilians and civilians. He said: "We are implementing a technical tackle. It is estimated that by 2025, China's nuclear submarine noise will be substantially reduced and its performance will also reach the world-class level." "

Among the oceans, with good concealment, submarines can destroy their opponents, known as the "underwater killer." However, the submarine also has a fatal weakness - noise.

"It is found equal to be eliminated." He Lin said that after thorough and detailed investigation, he secretly resolved to aim at submarines of this weakness, the anti-vibration technology to tackle the ship.

Just over the age of Hailian, He Lin deal with submarine noise reduction for 35 years. He gave full play to the knowledge base of mechanics, after tireless test research, finally successfully developed a type of vibration isolation device. After the vibration isolation device was installed on the ship generator, the equipment was "insulated" from the hull. Since then, submarine soldiers no longer have to worry about difficult to fall asleep.

One problem has been solved, and another problem ensues. Submarine mechanical noise can still be along the mechanical equipment connected to a variety of pipes to pass out. In order to eliminate the vibration and noise transmitted along the pipeline, a special balanced flexible pipe needs to be used on the submarine.

Over the years, the domestic can only be used to replace a bulky pipe connector behind, no noise reduction effect, there are serious security risks. To import the product from the developed countries, they were rejected again. In the face of predicament, He Lin did not talk back: "We do it ourselves."

In a few years, He Lin led the team to gradually develop five types of hundreds of high-performance flexible hose specifications for the Navy's combat effectiveness has made a significant contribution. His work was evaluated as "bringing a revolution in the field of vibration reduction technologies in China."

Just as everyone thought he stood up to the commanding heights of vibration isolation technology, He Lin set off again and after more than three years of hard work, he led the task force members to overcome a number of major technical problems. Since then, the Chinese submarine has been "quietly" becoming even more spooky.

(Technology Daily Beijing, March 4)
 

weig2000

Captain
On the sideline of national congress meeting a Submarine noise expert give a statement,Basically he is talking about pipe vibration that will leak thru the hull. So his solution it to make the pipe flexible I believe now adays it is possible to accurately predict pipe vibration noise using computer simulation

"We are now breaking through the technology, the noise of the nuclear submarine in China declined dramatically around 2025 , The performance also reaches world leading level "
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
...From Oedo
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Here is google translation quite decent translation

He Lin: He let the Chinese submarine quietly
2018-03-05 00:00:00 Source: Science and Technology Daily Author: newspaper reporter Sun Yusong

This is another important piece of news coming out of China in relating to naval technology today; the other one is the successful testing of the EM railgun.

He Lin essentially said, on the sideline of the on-going National People's Congress, that Chinese nuclear submarine noise level will reach the international leading level at around 2025. I think this effectively confirms that 095/095 will have noise level at the same level of improved Los Angeles-Class (688i) if not better. He Lin, by the way, is the leading scientist responsible for nuclear submarine noise reduction in China. He works for the Institute of Naval Engineering, same as Professor Ma Weiming.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
This is another important piece of news coming out of China in relating to naval technology today; the other one is the successful testing of the EM railgun.

He Lin essentially said, on the sideline of the on-going National People's Congress, that Chinese nuclear submarine noise level will reach the international leading level at around 2025. I think this effectively confirms that 095/095 will have noise level at the same level of improved Los Angeles-Class (688i) if not better. He Lin, by the way, is the leading scientist responsible for nuclear submarine noise reduction in China. He works for the Institute of Naval Engineering, same as Professor Ma Weiming.
It's hard to know what to make of his statement. He could be referring to the 095/096, or he could be referring to the 097/098. If 095 goes into production by the end of this decade, its technology will have already finished R&D long before then. In which case he would be referring to the R&D for the follow-on generation of nuke subs ("097/098"), since that could reasonably be finished by the mid 2020s in time for construction starting in the late 2020s.

He could instead be referring to the debut of new world-standard technology into actual operational service, in which case a mid 2020's (in-service) date would be more consistent with a 095/096 that begins production in the early 2020s.

As for "world standard" technology, I do not think 688i should be considered world standard anymore. The improved Akulas already beat the 688i in acoustics, and that was back in the early 90s. Yasen and Seawolf/Virginia now represent the world standard, and IMO the technology He is referring to is more likely to be somewhere in the range of these subs' acoustic levels.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
This is another important piece of news coming out of China in relating to naval technology today; the other one is the successful testing of the EM railgun.

He Lin essentially said, on the sideline of the on-going National People's Congress, that Chinese nuclear submarine noise level will reach the international leading level at around 2025. I think this effectively confirms that 095/095 will have noise level at the same level of improved Los Angeles-Class (688i) if not better. He Lin, by the way, is the leading scientist responsible for nuclear submarine noise reduction in China. He works for the Institute of Naval Engineering, same as Professor Ma Weiming.

As Iron Man said, I would be surprised if Chinese SSN/SSBNs only reach 688i level by 2025.

If "international leading level" means what the words suggest, then Virginia, Astute, Yasen, Barracuda should be among the peers that they are comparing to.


The other thing to consider is whether he is referring to the technologies that are developed by 2025, or that the SSN/SSBNs in service by 2025 would reach the same "international leading level" by that time.
 

weig2000

Captain
It's hard to know what to make of his statement. He could be referring to the 095/096, or he could be referring to the 097/098. If 095 goes into production by the end of this decade, its technology will have already finished R&D long before then. In which case he would be referring to the R&D for the follow-on generation of nuke subs ("097/098"), since that could reasonably be finished by the mid 2020s in time for construction starting in the late 2020s.

He could instead be referring to the debut of new world-standard technology into actual operational service, in which case a mid 2020's (in-service) date would be more consistent with a 095/096 that begins production in the early 2020s.

As for "world standard" technology, I do not think 688i should be considered world standard anymore. The improved Akulas already beat the 688i in acoustics, and that was back in the early 90s. Yasen and Seawolf/Virginia now represent the world standard, and IMO the technology He is referring to is more likely to be somewhere in the range of these subs' acoustic levels.

As Iron Man said, I would be surprised if Chinese SSN/SSBNs only reach 688i level by 2025.

If "international leading level" means what the words suggest, then Virginia, Astute, Yasen, Barracuda should be among the peers that they are comparing to.

The other thing to consider is whether he is referring to the technologies that are developed by 2025, or that the SSN/SSBNs in service by 2025 would reach the same "international leading level" by that time.

I understand what you guys are saying. His words are vague, yes, and deliberately so. There are some range of possibilities when we try to decipher his statements. I was a bit reluctant to give them the most optimistic interpretation right now.

There are two areas of vagueness in his statements. One is what constitutes "international leading standard" in his mind. I would think 688i is the lower bound, and it may be better. That's why I said "if not better." The other area is whether the year 2025 refers to the time when the the level of submarines that China will have built by then or the R&D technology it will have achieved. The latter is possible but not likely because it doesn't make a lot of sense to come out saying in definite term the level of R&D in 7-8 years. So it makes most sense that the nuclear submarines commissioned or launched by 2025 will obtain that noise level. Realistically, we're talking about 095 and/or 096 here. That's why I was saying this refers to 095/096. My understanding/guess is that 095 is under construction now and very likely 096 will be launched before 2025.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I understand what you guys are saying. His words are vague, yes, and deliberately so. There are some range of possibilities when we try to decipher his statements. I was a bit reluctant to give them the most optimistic interpretation right now.

There are two areas of vagueness in his statements. One is what constitutes "international leading standard" in his mind. I would think 688i is the lower bound, and it may be better. That's why I said "if not better." The other area is whether the year 2025 refers to the time when the the level of submarines that China will have built by then or the R&D technology it will have achieved. The latter is possible but not likely because it doesn't make a lot of sense to come out saying in definite term the level of R&D in 7-8 years. So it makes most sense that the nuclear submarines commissioned or launched by 2025 will obtain that noise level. Realistically, we're talking about 095 and/or 096 here. That's why I was saying this refers to 095/096. My understanding/guess is that 095 is under construction now and very likely 096 will be launched before 2025.

In that case I think it more reflects the possible differences in our opinions towards where 688i stands in worldwide standards for nuclear submarines, because I think most people would consider it to be at least one generation if not two generations behind what the current leading standard of today is.
20 or 30 years ago 688i definitely would have been the leading standard, but today it would be considered almost obsolete.

And yes, I think it is reasonable to interpret his statement as meaning 09V/09VI which should enter service around the 2025 mark and which should be in the early stages of construction now.
 

weig2000

Captain
In that case I think it more reflects the possible differences in our opinions towards where 688i stands in worldwide standards for nuclear submarines, because I think most people would consider it to be at least one generation if not two generations behind what the current leading standard of today is.
20 or 30 years ago 688i definitely would have been the leading standard, but today it would be considered almost obsolete.

To be perfectly clear, it's a reflection of possible differences in our opinions towards where 688i stands in worldwide standards for nuclear submarines in his mind. I have seen some rather generous interpretation of what constitutes "international leading level" within the Chinese defense circle, although I'm not insisting that's necessarily what He Lin thinks (we simply don't know).

So until more evidence surfaces, that's how I interpret his statements.
 
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