PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
How are you so sure they don't already have this capacity in theater?

I don't understand this bravado attitude of invincibility that you have. The idea that only you are capable of cleverness, while the enemy will never be able to seize the initiative is quite dangerous, and frankly ridiculous. Especially when a first strike is openly being considered in the US.

This whole thread is about China's first wave options. Why would you assume that it's impossible for the enemy to launch its own first wave first? Never underestimate your enemy.
their deployments are by sea. weapons are unloaded and vehicles based at known island ports and airfields, with little cover. There's only so much foreign base warehouse space for permanent storage, typically they'll stack munitions before the war starts. Meanwhile PLA deployments are inside a large country with massive amounts of cover. the reserves are in country.

to track PLA weapons deployment they'd have to monitor the entire country, to track USN aviation and USAF weapons deployments PLA only need to watch a much smaller area of forward airfields and ports.

Due to lack of cover, to track USN movements PLA can use satellites and long range drones, but thanks to cover and noise, to track mobile ground forces you have to be right on top of them. But they can't get right on top of them, they'll have to overfly much of China to do so. There's a reason why ranges for anti-vehicle munitions are in the 10 km range, rather than 200 km range of anti-ship munitions. It's much harder to see ground forces, including TELs, from far away.

A conventional first strike is unlikely to work. only problem would be a nuclear first strike, but that's why China needs a massive strategic arsenal so a nuclear first strike is off the table.

Historical comparison: it took 6 months of Operation Desert Shield for US to build up enough forces to even attack Saddam Hussein Iraq, a country much smaller than, much weaker than, and with much less geographic cover than, China. China is not going to watch US build up in Guam or Okinawa for 6 months and be surprised when an attack happens.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
How are you so sure they don't already have this capacity in theater?

I don't understand this bravado attitude of invincibility that you have. The idea that only you are capable of cleverness, while the enemy will never be able to seize the initiative is quite dangerous, and frankly ridiculous. Especially when a first strike is openly being considered in the US.
You were the one who claimed PLA can’t mobilize without US knowing. The same can be said of the American forces.

High-tech missiles require dedicated warehouse with temperature and humidity control. How many of those can exist (under military control) in West Pac?
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
weapons are unloaded and vehicles based at known island ports and airfields, with little cover. There's only so much foreign base warehouse space for permanent storage, typically they'll stack munitions before the war starts.

You have no way to verify the actual underground warehousing capacity at any outpost. Nor can you ever reliably track the contents of shipments to its many FOBs in theater. A sufficiently masked logistical network can deploy a massive arsenal of missiles without anyone knowing. All you have to do is stretch the time dimension of this logistical operation. Not to mention the SSNs and surface warships that will already be in the theater, which themselves pack a serious punch for a 1st wave strike against critical targets.


PLA can use satellites and long range drones, but thanks to cover and noise, to track mobile ground forces you have to be right on top of them. But they can't get right on top of them, they'll have to overfly much of China to do so. There's a reason why ranges for anti-vehicle munitions are in the 10 km range, rather than 200 km range of anti-ship munitions. It's much harder to see ground forces, including TELs, from far away.

The primary target of the 1st wave is not going to be ground formations. It's going to be IADS, Air, Naval and C4I targets. Because if you cripple those, the army doesn't matter. As for targeting rocket forces, yes not all of them would be found and destroyed, but a significant portion of them would be at risk if the enemy strikes the depots first.


Historical comparison: it took 6 months of Operation Desert Shield.....

The US can take 6 years to deploy a concealed missile inventory that it needs for a such a first strike. And again, for all you know, it already has. Also, Desert Shield has very little relevance here.


You were the one who claimed PLA can’t mobilize without US knowing.

... ?! Dude, I said the exact opposite! I said it must mobilize without being detected.
 
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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
The US can take 6 years to build up a concealed inventory that it needs for a such a first strike. And again, for all you know, it already has. Also, Desert Shield has very little relevance here.
China can do the same with prepositioned munitions and vehicles.
There were some discussions about this before. There is no need to mobilize ground forces in the initial phase of the reunification war. PLAAF and PLARF with some elements of ground force (long range multiple rocket launchers) will be the ones to take out Taiwan’s fixed air defence systems, airports, fuel depots, transformer stations, gas stations, etc. PLAGF amphibious units are already in theatre and medium combined arms brigades that are wheel-based can get into the theatre in a day or two. PLA is not gonna go for ground operations until PLAAF and PLARF bomb for at least a few days and achieved air dominance. PLAGF can take their sweet time to mobilize.
... ?! Dude, I said the exact opposite! I said it must mobilize without being detected.
Why? Can the US hide the deployment of the platforms that deliver “swarms“ of cruise missiles, smart munitions, drones, etc? You think China will sit around do nothing when the US sends 10+ Burkes, hundreds of F-35s, tons of tankers and AWAC into the theatre?
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
China can do the same with prepositioned munitions and vehicles.
There were some discussions about this before. There is no need to mobilize ground forces in the initial phase of the reunification war. PLAAF and PLARF with some elements of ground force (long range multiple rocket launchers) will be the ones to take out Taiwan’s fixed air defence systems, airports, fuel depots, transformer stations, gas stations, etc. PLAGF amphibious units are already in theatre and medium combined arms brigades that are wheel-based can get into the theatre in a day or two. PLA is not gonna go for ground operations until PLAAF and PLARF bomb for at least a few days and achieved air dominance. PLAGF can take their sweet time to mobilize.

Why? Can the US hide the deployment of the platforms that deliver “swarms“ of cruise missiles, smart munitions, drones, etc? You think China will sit around do nothing when the US sends 10+ Burkes, hundreds of F-35s, tons of tankers and AWAC into the theatre?


.... So you're just going to ignore the fact that you thought I was saying the exact opposite of what I actually said?

Why should I even respond to you at this point?

And you're still not getting the actual threat vector of such a strike.

There's plenty of US operated land within direct CM/BM range that can launch a first strike.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
.... So you're just going to ignore the fact that you thought I was saying the exact opposite of what I actually said?

Why should I even respond to you at this point?

And you're still not getting the actual threat vector of such a strike.

There's plenty of US operated land within direct CM/BM range that can launch a first strike.
Your main point is the US can launch a surprise strike against China before China can mobilize fully. I’m questioning the presumption the US is able to do it. PLA forces’ alert level for sure will increase before any mobilization (increase flights of KJ-500 in the coastal regions can throw a monkey ranch in the American‘s plans), and the US need to move large number of launch platforms (which I doubt it can hide) into West Pac to launch a big enough strike that matters.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Your main point is the US can launch a surprise strike against China before China can mobilize fully. I’m questioning the presumption the US is able to do it. PLA forces’ alert level for sure will increase before any mobilization (increase flights of KJ-500 in the coastal regions can throw a monkey ranch in the American‘s plans), and the US need to move large number of launch platforms (which I doubt it can hide) into West Pac to launch a big enough strike that matters.

This entire discussion depends on how slowly the US is able to gradually build up its western pacific presence and how long it is able to maintain it for during peacetime in a high readiness manner versus the degree of readiness and extent of forces (especially strike forces) that the PLA is capable of having at high readiness during that same time period.

Overall, Mohsin's overarching argument is correct, which is that the prepositioning of US forces in the region means that there is a risk that whoever fires the first shot may hold a significant advantage in a conflict.

The concern of course, is that by firing the first shot, one would be seen as the aggressor and you would need the capability to comprehensively follow up your first wave strikes to enable overall military and political victory in the ensuing conflict.



Going forwards, the PLA's strategic procurement of weapons systems are likely to continue to focus on regional strike and power projection systems across all domains (air, surface naval and subsurface naval in particular), as well as long range regional strike systems in both quality and quantity, and long range regional ISR systems, to enable a more permanent deployment of large formations of air and naval units closely monitoring US land bases in the western pacific and 2nd island chain during peacetime.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Chinese government established East China Sea’s ADIZ to handle that possibility. The existence of the ADIZ means PLAAF and PLANAF will always have units in high readiness. PLA probably does the same in the south. Americans are unlikely attack China out of the blue. There will be a period of tense relations before any hostilities. Forces from all sides will be at higher readiness level.

PLAN already regularly send picket forces into West Pac. Any US attacks have to go through them first.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Chinese government established East China Sea’s ADIZ to handle that possibility. The existence of the ADIZ means PLAAF and PLANAF will always have units in high readiness. PLA probably does the same in the south. Americans are unlikely attack China out of the blue. There will be a period of tense relations before any hostilities. Forces from all sides will be at higher readiness level.

PLAN already regularly send picket forces into West Pac. Any US attacks have to go through them first.

Forces on all sides will indeed be at higher readiness levels on all sides, yes, but the ability to respond promptly in event of a conflict after a period of tension, will still depend on the capabilities that one has procured and have operational during that time.
The ability to carry out a "surprise" first strike during those circumstances may not be possible at the strategic level, but very possible on the operational level, which could prove decisive.


The ECS ADIZ is not quite the same as what I described.
The ECS ADIZ extends over the ECS only, and only in the first island chain region in that direction.
Going into the near future, they will have requirements to be capable of having regular close in monitoring and strike capability on station and in relatively close physical proximity to US land bases in the second island chain as well. Substantial surface naval and subsurface capabilities would be demanded for that mission.


Overall, there remains substantial conventional power projection and regional strike and ISR capabilities that the PLA needs to develop and procure to be capable of competing with the threats of the near future.
And the physical proximity of where the conflict would occur (western pacific) means that greater pressures will be placed on the PLA both during peacetime, periods of tension, and on wartime, to have a faster and more comprehensive OODA cycle than the opfor, in terms of regional ISR and strike capabilities.


I'm really not sure why there's this pushback against Mohsin's posts -- he's entirely correct that the threat of "firing the first shot" is one that the PLA needs to consider carefully and invest significantly so that not only can they absorb any first strikes (if they are unable to get the first shot off themselves), but also to retaliate in a prompt and comprehensive manner.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
I'm really not sure why there's this pushback against Mohsin's posts -- he's entirely correct that the threat of "firing the first shot" is one that the PLA needs to consider carefully and invest significantly so that not only can they absorb any first strikes (if they are unable to get the first shot off themselves), but also to retaliate in a prompt and comprehensive manner.

Two things: I’m questioning the “surprised” part and I‘m also questioning the effectiveness of the American first strike.

When China and the US have heighten tensions, I expect the PLAAF to keep a fleet of KJ-500 in air covering all coastal approaches, the PLAN to send out picket forces out to act as trip wires and all air defence units active (or ready to be turn on to replace destroyed units). I expect many of the Tomahawks and drones get identified and destroyed.
 
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