Pakistan considering to buy either Eurofighter or Rafale

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Finally the government of Pakistan has decided to address the MKI threat from India. Looks like the PAF might get anywhere between 25-50 Typhoons or Rafales. Also the Indian MKI fleet is far from ready; the IAF has only 50- 60 MKI's right now and with production going at 10 per year, it will be a decade before the MKI fleet is in its full force.

The article talks most about the submarine deal, but I already have a thread about that. The article does touch up on the Rafale/Typhoon deal though.

This is an article put up by Zeron in the Navel section but I'd like everyone to focus on the highlighted section.

Pakistan Seeks 3 Subs From France

New Design Would Free DCN of Spanish Partnership
By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS

Pakistani interest in three attack submarines is forcing France to make hard decisions over industrial interests vested in the DCN naval systems company and diplomatic and economic relations with Spain and India, analysts said.

Islamabad intends to spend $1 billion to $1.2 billion on three patrol submarines, preferably of a new design from DCN but possibly of the German 214 class, a Pakistani official said.

But the potential sale of high-tech weapons to Pakistan may be too much for the French government to swallow. The deal would steady employment at DCN?s Cherbourg sub yard, but would likely antagonize India, with whom Paris recently signed a defense agreement. New Delhi also is a submarine customer, having recently purchased six of DCN?s Scorpene attack subs.

The sale of an all-French design also might raise hackles in Spain. The Spanish are partners in building the Scorpene, but Spain?s Navantia yard is teaming with Lockheed Martin on its S-80 boat.

The Pakistani official said Islamabad ?is interested in a single-hull submarine,? distinct from quieter, more expensive double-hulled boats. ?We have made it known there is a requirement for three submarines.?
Islamabad wants a formal offer within six months from Armaris, the naval marketing joint venture of DCN and French systems house Thales, so it can order the subs within a year, the official said.

The country also is looking to buy 25 to 30 highly capable fighter aircraft, and is considering the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab JAS 39 Gripen, the official said. A Pakistani delegation is due to go to Italy next month to see the Typhoon go through flight trials, he said. The pursuit of the Pakistan deal shows DCN wants to develop new subs for export.

?This is a logical move, given DCN?s strong installed base in SSKs [diesel-powered attack submarines] and the attractions of the SSK market,? said Sash Tusa, an analyst at brokerage Goldman Sachs.
But going it alone might be seen as undermining all the recent talk of building European defense, French government and industry executives said.

The submarine sale underlines the clash between industrial and diplomatic interests for France, an analyst said.

?Industry needs it, but the French government does not want to contribute to a potential arms race in the region and cannot afford to upset India,? said Loic Tribot La Spiere, chief executive of the think tank Centre d?Etude et Prospective Strategique.

French military ties with Pakistan date back three decades. The Pakistani Navy was an early export customer of DCN?s Daphne submarine in the mid-1960s, setting the bar for other navies that operated near the Persian Gulf. Pakistan bought three Agosta 90B boats, dubbed the Khalid class, in the mid-1990s. Pakistan?s Air Force has flown the French-built Dassault Mirage III and V fighters.

This longstanding relationship gives DCN an edge in the competition, the Pakistani official said.

?We know their processes, their procedures,? the official said.

Wanted: Export Approval

But if Paris withholds export approval, Pakistan might turn to the 214 submarine built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW), part of Germany?s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems. It also might consider buying the subs from China, he said.

DCN is keen to sell, but has had trouble prying export approval from the high-level Commission Interminist鲩elle D?exportation des Mat鲩els de Guerre.

Officially, Armaris has not proposed a new submarine, because it lacks approval for an offer from the committee. But that did not prevent Armaris officials from making an informal product briefing on a DCN design to a Pakistani delegation led by a senior naval officer in mid-February, here.
The Pakistani official said delegation members were given to understand that DCN had been cleared by the export committee to make an offer. A French industry executive, however, said there is no offer because clearance has been withheld.

And a French defense official said, ?The attitude towards Pakistan is a very cautious one, where great prudence is needed.?
Armaris declined comment. The Ministry of Defense spokesman was not immediately available. The Foreign Ministry and Prime Minister?s office referred questions to the Ministry of Defense.
A DCN spokeswoman said the company did not discuss its clients and declined comment.

Still, the Pakistani official said his government expects a formal offer next month from Armaris.

DCN?s new design, code-named Marlin, closely resembles the 10-year-old Scorpene design, but would include newer technology, including features of the Barracuda nuclear attack boats to be built for the French Navy.
Marlin would have an air-independent propulsion (AIP) unit, the Pakistani official said. AIP, an alternative to batteries, allows longer periods of running submerged. Pakistan?s third and last Agosta boat is being fitted with a Mesma AIP system, and the two earlier boats will be retrofitted.
Pakistan has not asked for the Scorpene because it does not want to buy the same product as the Indian Navy.
DCN barely made any money on the Agosta deal, the French defense official said. He said it was unlikely the French government would agree to sell new subs at basement prices, the official said.
Pakistan said it got a bad deal because it paid $1.2 billion for the three subs, including a 50 percent down payment on signing in 1994, and the program is three years late.

Independence from Spain

If a Pakistan deal can be struck, DCN would regain the ability to export subs without Spanish participation.

In 1997, the French company partnered with Navantia predecessor Bazan to design the Scorpene because it lacked enough money to do it alone. But healthy sales have padded DCN?s cash accounts to some 2 billion euros ($2.4 billion), giving it enough money to invest in its own design.
Still, the Spanish connection was key to selling Scorpene to Chile, which opened up the Latin American market. But when Navantia installed a combat management system from Lockheed Martin, DCN officials took the rejection of a similar French system as a snub.

One French analyst said Navantia?s purchase of the Lockheed system was influenced by the U.S. administration, which is seeking a way to keep its 2001 pledge to sell eight diesel subs to Taiwan. Since Spain has limited trade with China, Madrid could sell the S-80s to Taiwan with little economic consequences, the analyst said.

Into the balance must be thrown France?s relations with India, which has just bought six Scorpene subs armed with MBDA anti-ship missiles. French President Jacques Chirac visited India and signed a defense agreement on Feb. 19 aimed at boosting industrial cooperation, as well as a preliminary pact to help New Delhi develop civil nuclear energy.

During Chirac?s visit, India?s state airline formally inked a purchase of 43 Airbus airliners, worth $2.5 billion at list price, and 15 ATR regional turboprops.

Dassault Aviation is waiting to see the terms of India?s tender for 126 combat aircraft, and is ready to pitch the Rafale fighter jet, having withdrawn the Mirage 2000-5 from competition.

Christopher P. Cavas contributed to this report from Washington.
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
Re: Pakistan considering to buy either Eurofighter or Typhoon

This is an interesting development. Indeed PAF wants to finally address the MKI threat.

But what happened to the F-16 order ? I doubt if Pakistan will be able to afford F-16 and Rafale/EF at the same time.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Re: Pakistan considering to buy either Eurofighter or Typhoon

Indianfighter said:
This is an interesting development. Indeed PAF wants to finally address the MKI threat.

But what happened to the F-16 order ? I doubt if Pakistan will be able to afford F-16 and Rafale/EF at the same time.
Like I've said previously in many posts Pakistan is moving away from reliance
upon US equipment thus the EF is a stop-gap measure.

Expect to see a similar shift in Saudi and Gulf coast countries in the near future.
I suppose that explains the French meeting with the Saudi's recently
 

ArjunMk1

Junior Member
Re: Pakistan considering to buy either Eurofighter or Typhoon

PAF requires some BVR missiles and revelent radar & aveonics !! Purchasing two dozen of EF/Typhoon doesnot make any sense when PAF lacks any credible BVR system !! PAF must upgrade its existing fleet of F16s to BVR and get it installed in coming imports from USA !!!
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Re: Pakistan considering to buy either Eurofighter or Typhoon

ArjunMk1 said:
PAF requires some BVR missiles and revelent radar & aveonics !! Purchasing two dozen of EF/Typhoon doesnot make any sense when PAF lacks any credible BVR system !! PAF must upgrade its existing fleet of F16s to BVR and get it installed in coming imports from USA !!!
Please see the article below

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - APRIL 14, 2004

------------------------------------------------------------

Chinese missile may be for Pakistan's F-16s
ROBERT HEWSON Editor Jane's Air-Launched Weapons
Bangkok

"China is about to bring a second beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM) to the export market. The new weapon, to be known as the FD-60, is already in service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force as the PL-11.

In China it equips the Shen- yang J-8II 'Finback' interceptor but, according to the manufacturer, the export version is intended for the F-16 - a clear signal that Pakistan could be the lead customer.

Development of the FD-60 (PL-11) began in 1987 and was completed in 2000, according to the China National Precision Machinery Import & Export Corporation (CPMIEC). The weapon is described as an air-launched version of the LY-60 surface-to-air missile. It uses semi-active radar homing.

The missile borrows heavily from Aspide technology supplied by Italy before an arms embargo was imposed on China following the Tiananmen Square massacre.

China also had access to early-model US-built AIM-7 Sparrow missiles acquired via Vietnam, from which the Aspide itself is derived. Since the late 1980s Chinese technicians have been developing a Sparrow-class missile.

"Until now most observers had assessed the PL-11/FD-60 programme as a largely unsuccessful effort that had been overtaken by the more advanced PL-12/SD-10 active-radar AAM, developed under the leadership of the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp (CATIC). However, it now appears that work on the PL-11/FD-60 has continued, perhaps to provide a back-up capability in the event of problems with the PL-12/SD-10 but also because CPMIEC has identified an export market for the missile.

As the FD-60 is based largely on the Aspide/Sparrow design, integrating it with US-built aircraft should be relatively straightforward. Such a missile would be of great interest to existing customers of Chinese equipment, such as Pakistan and Iran, that have inventories of US fighters for which they cannot obtain advanced weapons - chiefly BVR missiles.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is already working on acquiring a BVR combat capability through the SD-10 and JF-17 Thunder (CATIC FC-1 fighter) combination. However, the opportunity to add a BVR AAM to its inventory much sooner (via the F-16) would surely be seized by the PAF command, which has already identified such weapons as one of its highest acquisition priorities."
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also i have a question for the more experienced members would you agree with the statement below because it would explain pakistan acquiring JDAM for ground attack role

Note: While it is true that F-18s were developed after the F-16s and the earlier versions of F-16s did not have the sophisticated avionics of the F-18s, the later models of F-16s, the C and D versions have all the avionic updates that are available on the F-18s. Most military experts rate the F-16s slightly superior in the air combat role whereas the F-18s score a bit more on the ground attack mode. In a majority of air forces that had an option to choose either of the two aircraft type, the F-16s were preferred over F-18s.
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ArjunMk1

Junior Member
Re: Pakistan considering to buy either Eurofighter or Typhoon

How PL11 will be integrated to existing F16s of PAF ??? They need a new radar for this . And I think USA will not let any one to install a new radar on its plane .

Any way JF17/J-10 with SD10 is surely going to come in PAF , but again they will be a viable force only 2010 onwards !!!
 

vincelee

Junior Member
Re: Pakistan considering to buy either Eurofighter or Typhoon

how would they install FD-60 on non-BVR F-16As? I don't know. Probably by updating the software. After all, the AIM-7 was widely used even during Vietnam. But integrating that with the BLK50/52 would be, as they say, straightforward.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Re: Pakistan considering to buy either Eurofighter or Typhoon

ger_mark said:
Europe wont sell the Eurofighter to Pakistan ,its as easy as that.
...easy as that he says... :D

any reason for that prediction...?
 

tphuang

Brigadier
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: Pakistan considering to buy either Eurofighter or Typhoon

hmm, shouldn't we change the title to Eurofighter or Rafale? Eurofighter and typhoon are kind of the same thing, you know.

As for FD-60, it's basically just a copy of Aspide, which has its root in sparrow, so the integration onto a F-16 might not be that difficult.

As for the typhoon, you can basically buy it from any of the 4 partners I thought. So even if Germany is not selling it, PAF can still buy it off one of the other 3. Either way, PAF looks like it's more interested in F-16 MLUs these days than the block 50s. Maybe that will give them more money for advanced fighters or maybe not.
 
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