J-XY/J-35 carrier-borne fighter thread

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
I read that the WS-19 will power JF-17 as well, is that true?

So China will have 2 class of new engines:
WS-15 - top of the line engine for J20
WS-19 - slightly weaker engine for FC-31 and JF-17

Will any other fighters use these engines? Like J10, J16 etc
I'd assume future J-10s and J-16s would use the latest WS-10s, although updating their design and fitting them with WS-15s does not sound outlandish either.

WS-15 : 170 to 180 kN
WS-10 (latest variant) : 140 to 150 kN
WS-19 : 100 to 110 kN (possibly 120 kN)
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Any chance of a single WS-15 engine J35? Will dual WS-19 give supercruise?

I don't see a single WS-15 J-35 happening. I would prefer that carrier fighters enjoy the benefit of the safety redundancy of having two engines.

I can see a separate project, a speculative but logical stealthier successor to the JF-17 being powered by the WS-15 or WS-19. But that's another story.
 

GTI

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't see a single WS-15 J-35 happening. I would prefer that carrier fighters enjoy the benefit of the safety redundancy of having two engines.

I can see a separate project, a speculative but logical stealthier successor to the JF-17 being powered by the WS-15 or WS-19. But that's another story.

Plus, if anyone has the F-35 in their minds... we all know the only/main reason it has 1 engine is because of the VTOL B variant and the folly of trying to build 3 (really just 2) stealth planes in 1 (or whatever the % parts commonality is).

I think the USN would have preferred to also enjoy that benefit, if they had it their way.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
So the J-35 program is jointly funded by both the PLA-AF and PLA-N?
  • (3)以前缺钱,东拼西凑只造了陆基型,陆基型的完善和优化,舰载型设计也做同步调整,保证两者最大限度的标准和结构件通用率!
  • 官媒也报道了,鹘鹰舰载型也在制造中了,(1)只用两年多点的时间,要从图纸变成实机,一架试飞,一架做静力测试,还是挺紧张的!
  • 钱给了,(2) 编号也都给了两年了,按时间推算,官媒称2021年首飞,并非是空穴来风,实机出现时看刷什么编号啦?3501?35001?
Doesn't sound like so.
(3)There was no PLA funding when they made and tested the land-based variant. (2)The type number was given just two years ago, together with the funding. (1)The naval variant was built in two years. These points seem to imply that only naval variant was chosen by PLAN and received funding. Whatever was done before (2020-2=2018) by SAC is from their own wallet and PLAAF was and still not paying.
 

by78

General
The only interesting bit is the red underlined part. It mentions full static test for a certain unnamed project. Could be J-XY.

50382325253_7733688d04_b.jpg
 

by78

General
An article on the electromagnetic compatibility requirements and optimization of engine controllers for the complex operating environment of carrier operations. The article is in Chinese, and a Google translation is posted below. Two of the authors are from 649 Institute (Guiyang Engine Design Institute), which is responsible for J-31/J-35's engines.

50582065196_c52df0a363_c.jpg


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Electromagnetic compatibility optimization design of carrier aircraft engine
Optimization Design of Electromagnetic Compatibility of Carrier Aircraft Engine
Xu Ming Yin Longxiang Liu Zilong October 18, 2020
With the increase in the detection parameters of aero engines and the continuous improvement of control functions, the circuit structure of the aero engine control system, especially the digital electronic controller, is becoming more and more complicated. The engine of the carrier-based aircraft is parked on the ship along with the aircraft. There are many high-power, high-frequency electronic equipment and cables nearby. The electromagnetic environment is complex and the electromagnetic field strength is high. The engine will encounter strong electromagnetic interference when working. In addition, in order to meet the needs of mission development, the level of digitization, automation, and intelligence of aircraft continues to increase, and the number of electronic and electrical equipment such as navigation systems, weapon systems, power systems, control systems, etc. continue to increase, the power continues to increase, and the frequency gradually rises. At the same time, for the purpose of lightweight, the aircraft uses a large number of composite materials, resulting in a reduction in the shielding performance of the aircraft body, which poses new and severe challenges to the electromagnetic compatibility of aircraft and engine systems. The electromagnetic compatibility of all electrical/electronic systems and accessories of carrier-based aircraft engines shall comply with the requirements of GJB 151B—2013 "Electromagnetic Emission and Sensitivity Requirements and Measurements for Military Equipment and Subsystems" and HJB 34A—2007 "Electromagnetic Compatibility Requirements for Ships" Regulations. The lightning protection design of engine accessories shall meet the requirements of GJB 2639-1996 "Lightning Protection for Military Aircraft". Compared with other engines, the electromagnetic compatibility requirements of carrier-based aircraft engines have increased electrostatic discharge sensitivity (CS112), 25Hz~100kHz magnetic field radiation emission (RE101) and lightning test items, and conduction sensitivity at 25Hz~150kHz power line (CS101) , Power line spike signal conduction sensitivity (CS106), 4kHz~400MHz cable bundle injection conduction sensitivity (CS114), 10kHz~100MHz cable and power line damped sinusoidal transient conduction sensitivity (CS116), 10kHz~40GHz electric field radiation sensitivity (RS103) and other projects put forward higher requirements. Therefore, carrier-based aircraft engines must be improved and optimized in terms of electrical wiring, electronic controllers, ignition systems, sensors, etc., based on the electromagnetic compatibility design of other engines, to meet relevant requirements.

Optimization of electrical wiring

In order to take into account the thrust index requirements of carrier-based aircraft engines, lightweight design of control system components is required, which often results in a compact layout of the control system on the engine and dense wiring. Compared with other engines, the electromagnetic environment of carrier-based aircraft engines also includes natural interference sources, receivers, transmitters, antennas, etc. in the sea area. The combined effect of intentional threat electromagnetic environment and unintentional background electromagnetic environment. The electrical wiring design of the carrier-based aircraft engine needs to consider the coupling suppression of low-frequency and high-frequency cables and control the common mode current. In order to ensure that the electrical wiring of the ship-based engine meets the electromagnetic compatibility design requirements, the following principles should be followed when the electrical system design is carried out: Except for the switch value, the remaining wires should be twisted-pair or triple-pair shielded wires; the wire shielding layer should pass through the anti-wave sleeve Attached with shielded tail to ensure 360° shielding continuity; engine cable shielding layer adopts single-ended grounding; high voltage wire adopts inner and outer double-layer shielding method, adopting double-ended grounding; engine cable main plug and accessory end plug use marine resistant series connectors , The tail attachment uses shielded tail attachment to ensure 360° shielding continuity; after the wires are bundled, a light anti-wave sleeve is used for protection; the bifurcation point of the engine cable is overlapped with a high temperature resistant braided jacket and selected The integrated braided anti-wave sleeve technology ensures the continuity of the shielding at the bifurcation; the wire shield is connected to the connector housing through a section of anti-wave sleeve, and the induced current of the shielding layer is safely released through the ground, and it is guided through the bracket connected to the engine To the engine shell, improve the cable anti-electromagnetic interference ability.

Optimized design of electronic controller

Due to the low maturity of the control system of the distributed architecture, the reliability cannot meet the index requirements of aeroengines. At present, most of the aeroengine full authority digital electronic control (FADEC) systems in China are typical centralized control systems. Since the electronic controller of the carrier-based aircraft collects a large number of signals and a variety of types, the signals at the electronic controller end are easily coupled to each other and introduce interference, so the electromagnetic compatibility level of the electronic controller needs to be improved. The optimized design of the electronic controller is mainly divided into grounding, filtering, lightning protection, shielding protection and other aspects.


Electronic controller grounding

A special grounding component is designed on the chassis panel for grounding connection. The +28V ground of the electronic controller and the shell ground are short-circuited at the grounding pole; all secondary power supplies in the electronic controller are grounded at a single point; digital ground and analog ground Single-point connection at the A/D converter can effectively prevent the digital circuit noise from interfering with the analog circuit and leaking to the cable; the components that need to be grounded in the shell are close to the heat-conducting plate, and the heat-conducting plate and the case maintain good electrical contact , Can reduce electromagnetic radiation.

Electronic controller filtering

Select high-performance electromagnetic interference (EMI) filters to eliminate power interference, install them close to the power outlet entrance, close to the chassis wall, to ensure a good grounding effect; design a filter circuit at the aviation plug interface to ensure good anti-interference and self-interference Filtering capacity.

Electronic controller shielding protection

The surface of aluminum alloy material parts such as box body, panel and back cover are treated with conductive oxidation, so that the surface treatment layer has a good conductive effect, and the connection resistance between the parts of the chassis is low; the chassis shell has a good anti-electromagnetic radiation effect The combination surface of the panel, cover and the box body adopts the groove plane matching structure; select the compressible sealing material with high shielding effect to seal, such as socket gaskets and chassis shielding strips to achieve good electromagnetic shielding effect; Add a transient suppressor between the sensitive circuits of the electronic controller to reduce it to the level that the circuit can withstand; improve the circuit design of the anti-damage level, select a device with certain protection, increase the overvoltage and overcurrent protection; improve the ability of the functional circuit to withstand abnormalities The hardware design adopts certain functional redundancy design and fault isolation technology to prevent the propagation of faults and avoid adverse effects on other functional circuits.

(to be continued below...)
 
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by78

General
(Continued from above...)

Electronic controller lightning protection

The electronic controller box is an all-metal shielded structure, which theoretically forms a complete electrical shield and has a good overlap with the aircraft structure. The overlap resistance is not more than 5mΩ, which can quickly lead out the lightning current; shield the signal cable , And the shielding layer has a good overlap with the aircraft structure; except for the overlap terminal, the live parts at any position are kept insulated from the basic structure of the aircraft; by increasing the threshold of circuit damage and malfunction to reduce their vulnerability . So that the transient current entering the electronic controller will not damage the circuit or cause the circuit function to fail; the input/output signal is designed for lightning protection, and the transient suppression is added between the input/output signal of the electronic controller and the shell ground The circuit design to improve the anti-damage level, select the device with a certain degree of protection, increase the overvoltage and overcurrent protection; the hardware design to improve the ability of the functional circuit to withstand abnormalities, adopt a certain functional redundancy design and Fault isolation technology to prevent the propagation of faults and avoid adverse effects on other functional circuits.

Other designs

The weak, small signal and strong and large signal lines between the aviation socket and the motherboard are routed separately; the components on the module are arranged as compact as possible to reduce the length of the wiring, especially the high-frequency bus; the high-reliability needle-shaped printed circuit is adopted Board socket; when designing a printed circuit board (PCB), set the mirror ground and power supply to reduce ground circulation; try to route high-speed clock signals on the same printed board layer; minimize the vias of the printed board; adjacent Try to avoid parallel routing of the two signal layers; perform necessary processing for the digital input and output circuits, and arrange the ground wires of the digital input and output circuits separately; the power supply of each circuit inside the electronic controller adopts an isolated DC/DC converter, In the PCB design work, the internal circuit routing uses each functional circuit partition for routing.

Optimized design of ignition system

Compared with other engines, the ignition device of the carrier-based engine has a higher output voltage and higher frequency. The power input is in accordance with the requirements of GJB181B. The high-voltage output port and the power input port overlap will cause electromagnetic coupling, which affects the quality of power supply and adds an electronic controller. The difficulty of anti-surge design.

In order to minimize the interference of the high-voltage discharge signal on the power supply and avoid electromagnetic coupling, the ignition device power input and high-voltage output are distributed on the corresponding two sides of the product shell, and the working current is transmitted in the forward direction when the power is turned on, and does not overlap; in addition, Maximize the distance between the input and output sockets, minimize the interference of high-voltage discharge signals on the power supply, and facilitate the design of product electromagnetic compatibility.

From the perspective of improving the quality of power supply, it is necessary to redesign the filter circuit, add a filter circuit on the power input end close to the ignition device, and select voltage regulator devices to improve the quality of the power supply. At the same time, a connector with better shielding performance is used, and the input and output cables are shielded. In addition, lightning protection design must be considered.

Sensor optimized design

According to different working principles, the sensors of the carrier engine are divided into platinum resistance temperature sensors, pressure sensors, thermocouples (collecting rings), speed sensors, vibration sensors, angular displacement sensors, ion flame detectors, and annunciator sensors. And so on, the corresponding optimization design of different types of sensors is also different.

Platinum resistance temperature sensors, rotational speed sensors, vibration sensors, angular displacement sensors, ion flame detectors and other sensors have their own working current of milliampere DC current, and the amount of electromagnetic emission is small. This type of sensor uses an all-metal housing to isolate the internal environment from the external environment. The different parts of the sensor that directly contact the external environment are welded by fusion welding, which can reduce the surface contact resistance as much as possible. Select wires, connectors and tail accessories with good shielding performance. According to previous test results, the sensor can meet the electromagnetic compatibility requirements of carrier-based aircraft engines.

The pressure sensor adopts a metal shell sealing design to isolate the internal environment from the external environment. The welding of different parts of the sensor directly in contact with the external environment should reduce the surface contact resistance as much as possible.

The thermocouple (snubber ring) adopts a metal shell seal design to isolate the internal environment from the external environment. The different parts of the thermocouple that directly contact the external environment are welded by fusion welding, which can reduce the surface contact resistance as much as possible, and has better The electromagnetic shielding effect. The slip ring used for signal transmission has no electromagnetic shielding structure outside the compensation wire, and its electromagnetic shielding ability is poor. The thermocouple uses the terminal as the signal output method, and the collector ring uses the terminal signal input method. The terminal and the metal body of the terminal are completely exposed to the electromagnetic environment. There is a risk of signal fluctuations during the electromagnetic assessment. It is necessary to consider shielding the connection mode of the thermocouple and the slip ring, and shielding the slip ring at the same time.

The annunciator sensors are all switching values. There are no electronic components inside the product, no components inside the product that are subject to electronic interference, and no components that emit electromagnetic waves. Based on past experience and bottom-out test results, the annunciator type can meet Electromagnetic compatibility requirements for carrier-based aircraft engines.

Concluding remarks

In order to meet the electromagnetic compatibility requirements of carrier-based aircraft engines, improve the electromagnetic compatibility of the control system and work reliability under complex electromagnetic environment conditions, in addition to the above optimization and improvement measures, it is necessary to further deepen the flight control coordination and coordinate the adoption of electromagnetic compatibility measures. According to the design requirements of electromagnetic environment effects of carrier-based aircraft engines, in view of other engine exposure problems and more stringent electromagnetic compatibility design requirements, signal loops should be analyzed, hierarchically classified and classified to achieve a more systematic electromagnetic compatibility optimization design.

(Xu Ming, Engineer, Major Special Equipment Project Management Center, Naval Equipment Department, mainly engaged in aviation equipment project management)
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't see a single WS-15 J-35 happening. I would prefer that carrier fighters enjoy the benefit of the safety redundancy of having two engines.

I can see a separate project, a speculative but logical stealthier successor to the JF-17 being powered by the WS-15 or WS-19. But that's another story.
How would this variant of J-17 be different from the J-10 in terms of capability? Wouldn't it be easier to just sell them J-10?
 
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