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Abominable

Senior Member
Registered Member
Close to Russia, or close to the US, it doesn't matter

For every $ that India spends on foreign procurement, it is one less $ for domestic development for weapons.

I sincerely hope that India goes all out and start buying 100s of Rafales, foreign missiles, ships etc. It doesn't matter.
As long as that money isn't spent on domestic weapons then that's ok with me
Generally speaking, it's cheaper to buy a developed product than to develop them yourself. The domestic option may only work out cheaper in the long run, and that is with the assumption that you are able to do it. In India's case it seems to be a massive money sink right now.

Has the Indian domestic military complex been able to develop a single platform independently? Everything I've heard of seems to have a myriad of problems.
 

pmc

Junior Member
Registered Member
Unless you can point to any official disclosures, you can't assert that Russia wants India to establish a relation as close as Israel has to US ( which isn't exactly a normal or organic relationship but has cultural or other reasons). Russia has been losing many orders to India and India will only continue to wean its dependence on Russian MIC. And No, Russia doesn't like that. No one will like losing customers.
how exactly is Russia losing? when India imported nuclear power industry will be majority Russians. same with various ground, air and naval systems.
Infact India has put is own money Russia Oil/Gas Industry despite location far away from India. I have read alot about it and that is my conclusion.
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Defence Industry is Russia's biggest source of Revenue and sustains a high skill base ( Gas and Food grains are other but they are low value added). Russia absolutely needs more Defence orders and prefers to sustain manufacturing at home.
Russia defense industry is now used to built its own power. They care less about exports. Exports are to built relationships with foreign people by selling few standardized examples.
do you understand the skilled manpower involved to make a certified plane with 97% domestic components?. Every aviation product and semiconductors will be built with same approach.

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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
how exactly is Russia losing? when India imported nuclear power industry will be majority Russians. same with various ground, air and naval systems.
Infact India has put is own money Russia Oil/Gas Industry despite location far away from India. I have read alot about it and that is my conclusion.
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Russia defense industry is now used to built its own power. They care less about exports. Exports are to built relationships with foreign people by selling few standardized examples.
And I have read more. India feels Russia has snatched money from them and Indian Industry has not benefited enough from the cooperation with Russia ( Brahmos and Indian SSBN notwithstanding). India therefore is seeking US or western Europe embrace.
Russia defense industry is now used to built its own power. They care less about exports. Exports are to built relationships with foreign people by selling few standardized examples.
do you understand the skilled manpower involved to make a certified plane with 97% domestic components?. Every aviation product and semiconductors will be built with same approach.
? Your point being ? If you intend to show evidence that Russia is completely OK with losing India as a customer and that Russian market alone is enough for its defense industry then I have nothing to say. It's ridiculous.

To further my take:

India hasn't stopped buying from Russia.
NOVEMBER 25, 2021
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The deal will see the first 70,000 7.62×39 mm Kalashnikov rifles coming directly from Russia, with the remainder being manufactured at a facility in Uttar Pradesh’s Amethi district.

The arms plant was created in 2019 as part of an Indo-Russian joint enterprise known as Indo-Russian Rifles Private Limited. The government-owned Indian Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has a 50.5 percent stake in the joint venture, while Kalashnikov and Rosoboronexport have 42 percent and 7.5 percent stakes, respectively, according to The Print.

The outlet explained that the lengthy negotiations resulted in Russia giving up royalty rights on each rifle manufactured in India but securing the right to be paid for technology transfer.



As I said, India seeks Technology transfer from Russia. Not in the case of US where either a competitive contract award goes down the "Offset" or 'local assembly' path or a direct purchase where India shuts up and buys the product at prices that only sheikdoms feel comfortable.
 

pmc

Junior Member
Registered Member
And I have read more. India feels Russia has snatched money from them and Indian Industry has not benefited enough from the cooperation with Russia ( Brahmos and Indian SSBN notwithstanding). India therefore is seeking US or western Europe embrace.
it is India problem it didnot obsorb the technology just like Turkey.
Europe and America are not going to them anything on licensing to same extent and Russia knows it.
? Your point being ? If you intend to show evidence that Russia is completely OK with losing India as a customer and that Russian market alone is enough for its defense industry then I have nothing to say. It's ridiculous.
India is biggest customer of Russia nuclear industry which is much bigger industry than Russia MIC. All the material research, supercomputing, batteries, power generation is related to that industry. India is increasingly investing in Russia Oil and Gas.
so why will Russia bother if India buys some weopons from West?
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
customer of Russia nuclear industry which is much bigger industry than Russia MIC. All the material research, supercomputing, batteries, power generation is related to that industry. India is increasingly investing in Russia Oil and Gas.
so why will Russia bother if India buys some weopons from West?
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Between 2011–15 and 2016–20 arms imports by India decreased by 33 per cent. Russia was the largest arms supplier to India in both 2011–15 and 2016–20. However, Russia’s deliveries dropped by 53 per cent between the two periods and its share of total Indian arms imports fell from 70 to 49 per cent. In 2011–15 the USA was the second largest arms supplier to India, but in 2016–20 India’s arms imports from the USA were 46 per cent lower than in the previous five-year period, making the USA the fourth largest supplier to India in 2016–20. France and Israel were the second and third largest arms suppliers to India in 2016–20. India’s arms imports from France increased by 709 per cent while those from Israel rose by 82 per cent. Combat aircraft and associated missiles made up more than 50 per cent of Indian arms imports in 2016–20. The overall drop in India’s arms imports between 2011–15 and 2016–20 seems to be mainly due to its complex and lengthy procurement processes, combined with its attempts to reduce its dependence on Russian arms by diversifying its network of arms suppliers.
 

pmc

Junior Member
Registered Member
Did it say Russia is bothered by it? if Russia was bothered it could sanction India just like US has sanction policy of unauthorized uses and inspections. Russia could ban overflight rights from India. Its India that need Russia.
this is random percentages. with no yearly dollar amounts to each country delivered. you are counting peanuts.
that Russia domestic procurement budget from 2010 upto 2030. is well in excess of $1T.
.India hasnot developed much thats why its importance cannot be more than what its importance in previous cold war. India cannot supply chips or software to Russia.
Arab recognize it and they are creating joint vision
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Here is that English translated story on a Chinese portal site in what I think is the original Chinese text.
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The Vikrant carrier design was originally made by Ficantieri (Italy). Older sketches I have seen on the net of it had a bulbous bow. But it seems to have lost it somewhere between that and getting built in India.

I think if the problem was manufacturing the bulbous bow they could just have outsourced that and installed it. But yeah it seems like a strange omission.

yeapp, India could outsource the design and manufacture the bulbous bow to China :rolleyes: . I think with a right price, China would take it
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Did it say Russia is bothered by it? if Russia was bothered it could sanction India just like US has sanction policy of unauthorized uses and inspections. Russia could ban overflight rights from India. Its India that need Russia.
this is random percentages. with no yearly dollar amounts to each country delivered. you are counting peanuts.
that Russia domestic procurement budget from 2010 upto 2030. is well in excess of $1T.
.India hasnot developed much thats why its importance cannot be more than what its importance in previous cold war. India cannot supply chips or software to Russia.
Arab recognize it and they are creating joint vision
Did I say that it's for a fact that Russia is bothered by it? It's my take that Russia is very likely to be bothered by one of its long term defence client moving towards West.

But let's go back to my original post (Russia being bothered isn't the original). I claimed India acts more like Arab Sheikdoms when they purchase military items without competitive issuance of contract and no technogy transfer clauses. And I'd be happy to revise that claim of mine if someone could show that this isn't the majority case.
 

pmc

Junior Member
Registered Member
Did I say that it's for a fact that Russia is bothered by it? It's my take that Russia is very likely to be bothered by one of its long term defence client moving towards West.

But let's go back to my original post (Russia being bothered isn't the original). I claimed India acts more like Arab Sheikdoms when they purchase military items without competitive issuance of contract and no technogy transfer clauses. And I'd be happy to revise that claim of mine if someone could show that this isn't the majority case.
That is your take. India will be covered by Russian airdefence system. Glonass has station in South India.
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what ever India do with West is upto India. India still not have same power like Arabs. so small amount of weopons purchase cannot influence policy that India assumes.
Arab sells expensive energy to West. than invest huge amounts through sovereign wealth funds. that generate multiple income streams.
 

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