Future PLAN orbat discussion


blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
(1)YJ-83/YJ-12 aren't plug-and-play, like, say, Taiwanese ones. It's possible to change them through modernization(1 for 2 at that), of course, but it is an exchange of capability set(i.e. sidegrade).
(2)For multi-purpose frigate YJ-83s make more sense(they're more numerous per unit of weight, more universal, and more usable). Bigger =/= better. YJ-83 is likely to be enough for everything you're likely to get a shot at within 1st Chain. Large supersonic missiles aren't overly suitable to engage smaller targets, for example - and you're getting fewer on 054AP.
(3)you already have several much larger platforms at your disposal, - with already established crews, with 1-2 decades of designed life left, and which were originally meant to do just that(and carry 8-16 heavy missiles from day 1 anyways).

All the advantages, no disadvantages.
I think it keeps a 1:1 ratio when the YJ-12 replaces the YJ-83. You often see the refitted 167 with 8 YJ-12s, but in fact it can still carry 16. Very likely the 054A/P can carry up to 8.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Most of the main parts have a pretty long life span. Just like the A/C in your home, most of the time it's just some cheap parts such as the brushes that brings down the whole unit. If you know how to fix it, it actually can last very long. The same here. China can produce a lot of parts that wear the most, so for basic maintenance, it's not an issue. The LM2500s don't work on the 052s as hard as some people think.
Naval application demand very high reliability with long interval of maintenance specially your prime mover like GT. It is not like home aircondition where access is easy and the worst can happened you sweat a lot. But in naval engagement it is the difference between life and death. You have to find way to mitigate corrosive and wet environment and It is not as easy as exchanging part which is very difficult in confine space of ships! It is not just making repair there are other consideration like this below control, environment, corrosion, reliability,

Several factors have helped spur the popularity of marine gas turbines. The development of controllable, reversible pitch propellers has helped boost the operational flexibility of gas turbine ships. An engine can go from full speed ahead to full stop in a matter of minutes. Engine start-up time has been reduced from four hours required for a typical steam propulsion system to less than two minutes for a gas turbine. The ability to operate gas turbines from the bridge has reduced the number of operating personnel needed, as well as eliminating the need to work in a hot engine room environment. The development of metal coatings that can resist corrosion problems caused by sea salt and sulfur in the fuel has prolonged engine life. The problems of saltwater contamination and microbiological growth in fuel tanks have also received attention.

Because high fuel consumption is a drawback with simple-cycle gas turbine engines, many modern marine propulsion systems also use diesel engines. They provide power for efficient low-power and cruise operations. These are called CODOG, for Combined Diesel or Gas Turbine Systems; diesel is used in low power and cruise operation, the turbine is used when high speeds are needed.
 
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blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Naval application demand very high reliability with long interval of maintenance specially your prime mover like GT. It is not like home aircondition where access is easy and the worst can happened you sweat a lot. But in naval engagement it is the difference between life and death. You have to find way to mitigate corrosive and wet environment and It is not as easy as exchanging part which is very difficult in confine space of ships!
That's why you need maintenance works at port. There's no reliable source ever mentioning that the 052s got the turbines replaced during their MLUs (they got two MLUs, not just one as usual!). They didn't even get the HHQ-7 replaced, do you really think PLAN bother overhauling their main engines?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
That's why you need maintenance works at port. There's no reliable source ever mentioning that the 052s got the turbines replaced during their MLUs (they got two MLUs, not just one as usual!). They didn't even get the HHQ-7 replaced, do you really think PLAN bother overhauling their main engines?
MLU is done every 10 years or so The commercial grade turbine won't last that long. You are naïve there much higher reliability for military spec gas turbine than commercial one. you cannot do maintenance as often as you like because of confine environment.
Anyway GE won't allow their GT used for military purposes They track each one that they exported to China There is maintenance that only GE can do it
 

blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Naval application demand very high reliability with long interval of maintenance specially your prime mover like GT. It is not like home aircondition where access is easy and the worst can happened you sweat a lot. But in naval engagement it is the difference between life and death. You have to find way to mitigate corrosive and wet environment and It is not as easy as exchanging part which is very difficult in confine space of ships! It is not just making repair there are other consideration like this below control, environment, corrosion, reliability,

Several factors have helped spur the popularity of marine gas turbines. The development of controllable, reversible pitch propellers has helped boost the operational flexibility of gas turbine ships. An engine can go from full speed ahead to full stop in a matter of minutes. Engine start-up time has been reduced from four hours required for a typical steam propulsion system to less than two minutes for a gas turbine. The ability to operate gas turbines from the bridge has reduced the number of operating personnel needed, as well as eliminating the need to work in a hot engine room environment. The development of metal coatings that can resist corrosion problems caused by sea salt and sulfur in the fuel has prolonged engine life. The problems of saltwater contamination and microbiological growth in fuel tanks have also received attention.

Because high fuel consumption is a drawback with simple-cycle gas turbine engines, many modern marine propulsion systems also use diesel engines. They provide power for efficient low-power and cruise operations. These are called CODOG, for Combined Diesel or Gas Turbine Systems; diesel is used in low power and cruise operation, the turbine is used when high speeds are needed.
Why do you think I need you to educate me on these? Is it really relevant to our topic?
 

blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
MLU is done every 10 years or so The commercial grade turbine won't last that long. You are naïve there much higher reliability for military spec gas turbine than commercial one. you cannot do maintenance as often as you like because of confine environment.
Anyway GE won't allow their GT used for military purposes They track each one that they exported to China There is maintenance that only GE can do it
BS. Just give me a reliable source saying the LM2500s have already been replaced.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
BS. Just give me a reliable source saying the LM2500s have already been replaced.
Your source BS. When you buy LM 2500 GE restrict use of some of the code and parts. Only they can replace it. that is what licensing for. Modern Gt use all kind of diagnostic tool and it goes to GE Data Center They certainly know what is going on with their machine
 

blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Your source BS. When you buy LM 2500 GE restrict use of some of the code and parts. Only they can replace it. that is what licensing for. Modern Gt use all kind of diagnostic tool and it goes to GE Data Center They certainly know what is going on with their machine

You got the logic wrong. China can produce the parts for the 052s not because of the GE license. China can do it with reverse engineering and access to the commercial version helps. That's it.
You can argue otherwise, but could you please give me a source saying the engines got swapped, just a single source would do, ok?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
You got the logic wrong. China can produce the parts for the 052s not because of the GE license. China can do it with reverse engineering and access to the commercial version helps. That's it.
You can argue otherwise, but could you please give me a source saying the engines got swapped, just a single source would do, ok?
That is not possible because GE will not allowed it and the sanction is to withheld all the parts for GE LM 2500 in China. No one will risk that too many industrial LM 2500. China is not GOD and con replicate everything ! you must dreaming. Certain technology is not for China to see

Why should China use LM 2500 they have their own domestic naval gas turbine QC 280?
 
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