CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Here's a list of figures I compiled, to try to get an estimate on the displacement.

I took the length and beam at waterline for various known carriers, plus whatever there's on the internet for their draft and displacement.
I am full aware of the fact some of those figures are likely not directly comparable, but there's really no way to tell which are which.
I am hoping the sheer number of various ships and the fact I am looking only for a rough estimate will overcome possible errors.

From those figures I got a coefficient value for each of the carriers. While surely not the hull shape coefficient, those values should still serve as a rough guideline. And then I applied those coefficients to the, again estimated, set of values of beam, length and draft for 003, to get a range of displacement figures.

11 m draft is really the biggest guess - for that i just copied the alleged kuznetsov draft. Most other, even bigger carriers, have very similar draft so why the heck not.

39.5 m waterline beam is my best guess judging by a range of photos back when the hull did not even reach the hangar level deck.

288 m waterline length is my best guess made based on that one photo where the shadow of the ship allowed us to observe where exactly the bow transitions into the bulbous bow which goes below water.

Anyway. I got the following set of figures:
75 000 tons if coefficient modeled after Charles de Gaulle
71 000 tons using Queen Elizabeth
64 000 tons using Kuznetsov
79 000 tons using Forrestal
72 000 tons using Kitty Hawk
77 000 tons using Enterprise
86 000 tons using Nimitz

Now, Nimitz seems an outlier, as its power train is so powerful it doesn't need to use a very efficient hull shape.
Enterprise is more interesting as it was the first nuclear fueled carrier and her whole powertrain was not really that powerful. Because of that she is at times described as using a more efficient cruiser like hull. The same could be said about CdG, which too, despite being nuclear fueled, has issues with power generation and may need a more efficient hull.

Kitty Hawk and Forrestal seem like good comparisons though, as both were powered by steam turbines powered by oil boilers. That's the expected power train the 003 will use, as far as most are expecting.

Kuznetsov too seems to be an outlier, yielding very low tonnage, but perhaps that too can be explained with a need for a VERY efficient, slender hull, as Soviets may've not had experience powering such huge ships before, so the whole powertrain would have been lacking for a heavier ship. 003 should fare better with its power train, given the Chinese experience.

That leaves us the QE carrier. I can't really explain why using its coefficient yields fairly low tonnage. If anything, I would have expected higher tonnage, due to the fact that QE doesn't need to go as fast, as it was designed to use STOVL planes. Maybe some of the public figures for QE are simply not really apples to apples kind of comparison to the rest of the carriers.

Anyway, to sum it up. Given all the above, and IF the estimated length/beam/draft figures are more or less correct - i would expect 003 to displace anywhere from low 70 thousand tons to high 70 thousand tons, at its max displacement value. Let's simplify that to around 75 thousand tons, give or take.

For USN ships, the published draft numbers are typically the limit draft or the max navigational draft. The latter includes all hull protrusions, like the bulbous bow. The former does not necessarily correspond to draft at full displacement. Judging by my measurements of DDG-51 class ships, where I compared the draft marks to the draft limit, the draft at full displacement (6.2m) can be almost 8% less than the draft limit (6.7m).

For example, the 106,000 metric ton CVN-73 has a draft limit of 12.5m. Assuming a 8% extra overloading capacity, the estimated draft at full displacement would be about 11.5m.

Can you share the table you made to compute the block coefficients so that we can compare notes?
 

Intrepid

Major
For example, the 106,000 metric ton CVN-73 has a draft limit of 12.5m. Assuming a 8% extra overloading capacity, the estimated draft at full displacement would be about 11.5m.
That can't be, that's 7,851 tons between 11.5 and 12.5 meters draft, but only 98,148 tons at 12.5 * 7,851 tons.

Tons of displacement per meter of draft should not be approximately the same over the entire height of the underwater hull.
 

jiangpresident

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Here's a list of figures I compiled, to try to get an estimate on the displacement.

I took the length and beam at waterline for various known carriers, plus whatever there's on the internet for their draft and displacement.
I am full aware of the fact some of those figures are likely not directly comparable, but there's really no way to tell which are which.
I am hoping the sheer number of various ships and the fact I am looking only for a rough estimate will overcome possible errors.

From those figures I got a coefficient value for each of the carriers. While surely not the hull shape coefficient, those values should still serve as a rough guideline. And then I applied those coefficients to the, again estimated, set of values of beam, length and draft for 003, to get a range of displacement figures.

11 m draft is really the biggest guess - for that i just copied the alleged kuznetsov draft. Most other, even bigger carriers, have very similar draft so why the heck not.

39.5 m waterline beam is my best guess judging by a range of photos back when the hull did not even reach the hangar level deck.

288 m waterline length is my best guess made based on that one photo where the shadow of the ship allowed us to observe where exactly the bow transitions into the bulbous bow which goes below water.

Anyway. I got the following set of figures:
75 000 tons if coefficient modeled after Charles de Gaulle
71 000 tons using Queen Elizabeth
64 000 tons using Kuznetsov
79 000 tons using Forrestal
72 000 tons using Kitty Hawk
77 000 tons using Enterprise
86 000 tons using Nimitz

Now, Nimitz seems an outlier, as its power train is so powerful it doesn't need to use a very efficient hull shape.
Enterprise is more interesting as it was the first nuclear fueled carrier and her whole powertrain was not really that powerful. Because of that she is at times described as using a more efficient cruiser like hull. The same could be said about CdG, which too, despite being nuclear fueled, has issues with power generation and may need a more efficient hull.

Kitty Hawk and Forrestal seem like good comparisons though, as both were powered by steam turbines powered by oil boilers. That's the expected power train the 003 will use, as far as most are expecting.

Kuznetsov too seems to be an outlier, yielding very low tonnage, but perhaps that too can be explained with a need for a VERY efficient, slender hull, as Soviets may've not had experience powering such huge ships before, so the whole powertrain would have been lacking for a heavier ship. 003 should fare better with its power train, given the Chinese experience.

That leaves us the QE carrier. I can't really explain why using its coefficient yields fairly low tonnage. If anything, I would have expected higher tonnage, due to the fact that QE doesn't need to go as fast, as it was designed to use STOVL planes. Maybe some of the public figures for QE are simply not really apples to apples kind of comparison to the rest of the carriers.

Anyway, to sum it up. Given all the above, and IF the estimated length/beam/draft figures are more or less correct - i would expect 003 to displace anywhere from low 70 thousand tons to high 70 thousand tons, at its max displacement value. Let's simplify that to around 75 thousand tons, give or take.
From my measurement, the waterline length of 003 would be at least 300. According to Wiki, Chinese type 055 destroyer(or cruiser) is 180m long. Base on this value, my measurement of the 003 dimensions is shown below.



003 measurements-1.png

The dimension of this ship is 308*40(i am being conservative). If I am using Kuz's Block coeff which is 0.637, the displacement of 003 would be 308*40*11*0.637= 86326.24 tons. If my width measurement is accurate, then the displacement would be 308*41*11*0.637=88484.396 tons.
 

jiangpresident

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Can I ask if we are discussing in terms of light, standard, or full-load displacement? The difference between each of them could be thousands of tons for the the same ship.
I am assuming Totoro is talking about Full load displacements because he thinks 11m is the biggest he can come up with. However, Nimitz has a draft of 11.3-12.5. Since 003 has a similar waterline length and width, the draft value of 003 should be close to Nimitz.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
That can't be, that's 7,851 tons between 11.5 and 12.5 meters draft, but only 98,148 tons at 12.5 * 7,851 tons.

Tons of displacement per meter of draft should not be approximately the same over the entire height of the underwater hull.
Yes, that's correct. What I did was very simple and probably wrong: I took the 8% draft difference between full displacement and draft limit I observed on the DDG-51 FLI and applied it to the CVN-73 hull: 0.92*12.5=11.5

However, all the Nimitz class carrier have gained considerable weight since commissioning. They could be close to their draft limit. CVN-68 was commisioned at 95,000 mt full displacement, which is 10,000mt less than CVN-73, according to NVR. The best way to resolve this question is through photos of the draft marks, but I was not able to find any.
From my measurement, the waterline length of 003 would be at least 300. According to Wiki, Chinese type 055 destroyer(or cruiser) is 180m long. Base on this value, my measurement of the 003 dimensions is shown below.
Careful. What makes you sure you are measuring the waterline length in that photo? Previous measurements on this forum yielded values slightly below 300m.
 

Intrepid

Major
What I did was very simple and probably wrong: I took the 8% draft difference between full displacement and draft limit I observed on the DDG-51 FLI and applied it to the CVN-73 hull: 0.92*12.5=11.5
But what should become clear to everyone in this discussion: a difference of 7,000 to 10,000 tons of water displacement means one meter more draft and no new hull design. In this way, the discussion of displacement is pretty worthless in terms of aircraft carrier effectiveness.

Rather count the square meters of free deck area not used for the landing strip, the length and width of the landing strip, the length and number of the catapults, the number and size of the elevators, and the capacity of the ammunition elevators.
 

Rachmaninov

Junior Member
Registered Member
It looks like the overhang is being put on now, no doubt about that. But I think the ship is large enough that they need to do a lower row of modules first, later followed by an upper row for the flight deck.

The overhang on 002 is thin enough (only 3 decks or so?) that it only needed one layer of modules. But as 003 has 10 decks like a USN carrier, it's probable that the overhang is 5 decks tall, so it makes sense to have separate modules for the lower overhang and upper overhang.

Oh well ... again more for the sake of completeness than to identify any details, here are three recent but most blurry images of the Type 003 aircraft carrier taken out of an airliner during an overflight of the Jiangnan Shipyard at Shanghai,

(Images via FB)

View attachment 71274

Seems to me to have proven that the overhang modules are indeed not up to deck level as @Higgle suggested and @Interstellar seconded.
 

jiangpresident

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Yes, that's correct. What I did was very simple and probably wrong: I took the 8% draft difference between full displacement and draft limit I observed on the DDG-51 FLI and applied it to the CVN-73 hull: 0.92*12.5=11.5

However, all the Nimitz class carrier have gained considerable weight since commissioning. They could be close to their draft limit. CVN-68 was commisioned at 95,000 mt full displacement, which is 10,000mt less than CVN-73, according to NVR. The best way to resolve this question is through photos of the draft marks, but I was not able to find any.

Careful. What makes you sure you are measuring the waterline length in that photo? Previous measurements on this forum yielded values slightly below 300m.

According to the flyover photos, the length that I measured is close to the length I mark in green, and the height is closed to my blue mark line.Waterline.png

This is the photo I am talking about.
waterline height.png

Both the tail and the back are not far from the red waterline mark, so measuring the length of them should give me a close result. Anyway, 288m length is a HUGE understatement.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
But what should become clear to everyone in this discussion: a difference of 7,000 to 10,000 tons of water displacement means one meter more draft and no new hull design. In this way, the discussion of displacement is pretty worthless in terms of aircraft carrier effectiveness.
In of itself, full displacement is of limited usefulness. There is some value in making crude relative comparisons among ships of similar configuration. Perhaps it's most valuable use is bragging :)

A naval vessel's dead weight, or carrying capacity, which includes ammunition and aviation fuel storage capacity, is of more merit, as it may give a clue to its on station time between resupplies. The US publishes these figures for all its naval vessels. A Nimitz class carrier has about 24,000 mt of carrying capacity. This includes the crew, food, fresh water, aircraft, ammunition storage, aviation fuel storage and ballast water.

A curious piece of trivia: the massive Ever Given container ship that blocked the Suez canal a few weeks ago has a lower light displacement than a Nimitz class carrier, despite dwarfing it in size (400x58.8) and full displacement (265,000 mt vs 106,000 mt). While the former is a largely empty hull, the latter is a very dense hull with the additional weight of armor.
 
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