CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

[Akame]

J-31/35 Will it catch up with Type-003?

 

[Blitzo]

I think the possibility of collapse of Chinese economy is technically not zero but it is considered seriously all over the western media. The "possibility" you mentioned is a very subjective thing. Different people have different opinions. And it is not worthy for a person like you who has some reputation in the community to upvote a comment in which people call people with other opinions "retard". Anyway, you are the moderator here, you can even remove the comments that speculate 003 is nuclear powered. But the more you do, the more you will be embarrassed if by chance it is actually nuclear powered. It is not worthwhile.

In this whole discussion about 003's "nuclear possibility" I've been writing as a normal posting member, without any moderator authority.
I have no interest in the removal of any posts about the topic so long as they remain relatively civil and do not derail the conversation too much.

Instead I have an interest in convincing the community through my own arguments that entertaining the possibility of 003 being nuclear powered at this stage of the game is bordering on nonsensical, and frankly a waste of time for the next year or so until we get photos of the island with its funnel.


And no, I don't think all opinions or arguments are equal or deserving of unconditional acknowledgement of legitimacy. The quality, interpretation and value of an opinion or argument depends on how we are able to assess said opinion/argument in context of the accumulated information that we know and the application of common sense and critical thinking.
The responses to certain opinions or arguments in turn is a reflection on the perceived value, quality and likelihood of such an opinion and argument.
I.e.: yes I think the active consideration and actively floating the possibility of 003 possibly being nuclear, as of late January 2021, is very ridiculous.


If 003 ends up being nuclear well then fantastic, we can put that down as one of the biggest upsets of PLA watching history, and significantly revise our methods.
But the chances of that being the case are about as likely right now, as it is that J-XY will be a J-20 derivative (rather than a FC-31 derivative).

 

[Anlsvrthng]

Just an interesting data, the reactor boiler is water based, the normal boiler is exhaust based.

The exhaust density thousand times less than water, means the boilers on the non nuclear ships way bigger than on a nuclear powered ship.

 

[silentlurker]

Just an interesting data, the reactor boiler is water based, the normal boiler is exhaust based.

The exhaust density thousand times less than water, means the boilers on the non nuclear ships way bigger than on a nuclear powered ship.

Isn't the driving fluid for both superheated pressurized steam? I'm pretty sure nuclear reactors are hot enough to boil water.

 

[Partoll]

On the picture from October , that is the 004 ongoing ?

 

[foxmulder]

Because only conventional steam propulsion requires boilers. Water is heated in the boilers and the steam is used to power turbines which in turn drive the propulsion, either directly through a mechanical transmission or indirectly through electric motors.

Nuclear propulsion does not use boilers, because water is heated in the reactor and the resulting steam channeled directly to the turbines. The steam condensates and is then channeled back into the reactor. The reactors substitute the boilers completely.

There is some reasonable logic behind the idea of conventional propulsion for 003. It fits with past development cycles for PLAN ship classes. Conventional steam propulsion is a tried and proven technology. It's much more affordable than nuclear, and a conventional CV can fulfil China's regional defense needs for the foreseeable future.

There is no reasonable logic behind nuclear propulsion. We have not seen nor heard anything about a large marine nuclear reactor design. Nuclear handling facilities do not currently exist at the shipyard. Going from 60,000-ton STOBAR to 85,000-ton CATOBAR with EMALS in one jump is ambitious and risky. China does not need a CVN for regional defense.

We talk a lot about a nuclear 003 now, but if it does turn out to be nuclear, it would mean that China finalized a CVN design as early as 2017. In that year, Shandong had not even finished construction. Imagine starting work on a 85,000-ton CVN before your first indigenous carrier was even completed. What part of this makes any sense?

Taking 002's design and propulsion, making it slightly larger, and replacing the ramp with catapults is a sensible evolutionary choice. Ripping out the propulsion and replacing it with something completely brand new, expensive, and unproven is not.

We will know for sure when we see the island.

I "love" the confidence in ignorance.

Risk with EMALS, risk with nuclear power, risk with tonnage of the ship are completely independent from each other. For a multi year, even multi decade project (carrier project of PLAN) risk analysis requires literally thousands of man hour work. It is complex calculation. There is simply no way you can know this. Even the admiral of PLAN does not know it before the feasibility work is done.

So far, the blurry satellite pictures we have do not prove anything either way.

Frankly, I think it is 50-50. I have my own reasons pro-against for both. The arrogance in tone for conventional believers here are trumpian I like to actually discuss the propulsion options pros and cons but in this type of toxic board where words like "retard" is used freely, what is the point.

 

[silentlurker]

On the picture from October , that is the 004 ongoing ?

I don't know the scale, but the proprtions don't look right to be a CV. It's far too wide and not long enough. Looks more like an 055 or 052 hull

 

[silentlurker]

Risk with EMALS, risk with nuclear power, risk with tonnage of the ship are completely independent from each other

What's the point you're trying to make here? Even if the two systems are completely sepearate from each other as you claim, if either system misses a deadline the carrier is useless

 

[Anlsvrthng]

Isn't the driving fluid for both superheated pressurized steam? I'm pretty sure nuclear reactors are hot enough to boil water.

?

The pressurised water reactor has water only in the primary loop, the boiling water reactor has steam/water in the reactor vessel.
There is an extremely high upper limit for the temperature generated by a nuclear reactor, in the billions of kelvin range.

 

[hkky]

?

The pressurised water reactor has water only in the primary loop, the boiling water reactor has steam/water in the reactor vessel.
There is an extremely high upper limit for the temperature generated by a nuclear reactor, in the billions of kelvin range.

How did you come up with the conclusion that that a nuclear reactor has an upper limit temperature in billions of degrees? Even a fission bomb can only reach on the order of 100 million K. Fission fragments can have energies on the order of 100MeV, which theoretically can be equated to billions of degrees, but at any instance the number of fissions is miniscule compared to number of at atoms in the core and so it is impossible to reach billions of degrees (even if you have a way to keep all in heat in and prevent all the fuel from vaporizing). What you are suggesting is that every atom in the reactor fission at the same time, an efficiency even the best of fission bombs cannot achieve. At a practical level, a reactor cannot operate at temperatures higher than the materials can handle, For all practical purposes, a PWR is limited to the water cycle and if I remember correctly, the saturation temperature is 360°C.