CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

[Tam]

If there is an urgency to greatly scale up naval buildup, lets say China suddenly decides to build three or more carriers simultaneously. Will there be enough skilled workers to meet this target? Let's say China decides to enter a wartime economic state.

If China already entertained such possibilities, they may already have done such steps in anticipation since yesterday. Maybe not building three or more carriers simultaneously but to scale up up warship production in all levels, from submarines to frigates and destroyers to auxiliaries.

i have no doubt at the beginning the Ukrainians could have given the Chinese much help in refurbishing the Liaoning. Liaoning was new to the Chinese and hearing why the ship was designed the way it was alone would have been a great help to the Chinese.

I doubt the ukrainians still had much to offer the Chinese by the time of Shandong, provided the Ukrainians themsleves still indeed remembered much of what they once knew.

I think by the time of carrier 3, the Chinese now know substantially more than the ukrainians ever did. There is nothing Remaining the Ukrainians ever knew that they could teach.

The US navy, Newport News yard, and Gibbs and Cox may have an unrivaled body of experience In designing and operating carriers, yet their vast experience is only a fraction of what is needed to actually design and manufacture a carrier from component up, Most of the Total body of experience actually resides with the huge sub contractor network spread across much of the US technological research and manufacturing infrastructure. That infrastructure has massively atrophied since mid 1980s. Much of the experience and skill in that network has undoubted been lost to retirement or scattered to the wind through mergers, Bankruptcies, Layoffs and Reorganizations. Due to the slow cadence of American carrier and warship construction, in between each bout of reinforcement of skill and experience, there is long period in which changes in the direction of wind of corporate whim and financial and fiscal reality can take Scatter that experience.

it would be inconceivable in the 1940s-1980s for the first in a new class of carriers to not reach fully operational status within a year or two of Commissioning.


just like after Washington and London naval treaties of the 1920s and 1930s, when low cadence of construction was enforced by treaty and made necessary by Britain’s fiscal situation, the Royal Navy still had more experience in designing and building battleships than anyone else. But The British industry was no longer up to the challenge of making efficiency t and trouble free gun mounts, or supply armor plate at a rate sufficient to allow the British to build battleships at the rate they once did prior to and during WWI.

Absolutely nailed it.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

Note that Babich denied in a comment to the Russian

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information that he was supposedly emigrating to China. "Everything is not true. I am in Nikolaev," he said in response to questions from journalists.

Note that in 1967 Valery Babich was sent to Nikolaev to work in the department of the chief designer of the Black Sea shipyard as a designer for missile and artillery weapons.

In 1979-1991, he was the head of the design bureau of the chief designer's department for aircraft carriers and the ground testing complex of naval aviation "Nitka" (construction of the TAVKR "Novorossiysk", "Baku", "Tbilisi", "Varyag" ).

Most likely doing expert work for foreign government in military field is a criminal offence in Ukraine as well.

So, it could be no surprise to hear denial from anyone, and the involved companies doesn't do anything more officially than giving advises for fish farm makers .


However ,from the other hand, have you ever tried just to interpret archived drawings without the help of the organisation that produced them ?

It is a pain on its own to found out the latest/ recent drawing of a sub-assembly.

Definitively, with the Liaoning the Chinese yards/suppliers badly needed experts to transfer/train the experiences contained in the drawings/instructions.


But, this help is now gone, the new design will be first of its kind, and all issue/debugging has to be done on the first unit.

The Soviet drawings,instructions and Ukrainian experts can't help with the manufacturing of the new ship.
Everything needs to be learnt on the go.

 

[asif iqbal]

edit

 

[asif iqbal]

China is doing great with carrier construction

but lets not get a inflated views of it

US has been doing it much faster and longer than any nation on earth

UK also did a great job with 2 x Queen Elizabeth carriers

I would say, US is light years ahead of both UK and China combined

if China can build 2 x CVN at 100,000 tons with EMALS and 5th generation aircraft by 2030 then we can say China is on the right track

and even longer before they catch the US if ever

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Most likely doing expert work for foreign government in military field is a criminal offence in Ukraine as well.

So, it could be no surprise to hear denial from anyone, and the involved companies doesn't do anything more officially than giving advises for fish farm makers .


However ,from the other hand, have you ever tried just to interpret archived drawings without the help of the organisation that produced them ?

It is a pain on its own to found out the latest/ recent drawing of a sub-assembly.

Definitively, with the Liaoning the Chinese yards/suppliers badly needed experts to transfer/train the experiences contained in the drawings/instructions.

But, this help is now gone, the new design will be first of its kind, and all issue/debugging has to be done on the first unit.

The Soviet drawings,instructions and Ukrainian experts can't help with the manufacturing of the new ship.
Everything needs to be learnt on the go.

I doubt that Babich has anything to do with type 002 Carrier or Shandong When Xu Zengping bought Varyag he paid extra money for the drawing he said it in the interview with SCMP. But the Chinese latter found out they are incomplete. so they have to digitized all the blue print I guess that time ACAD is the popular program I have no doubt that have hard time doing it that is why it take them 5 years just to dissect,redraw, learn and another 7 years to actually retrofit it. But they have advantage of having Varyag so they can comb and dismantle every single inch of the ships. Couple with their experience in building commercial ship and with the aid of xray and ultrasound equipment, I think they can figure it out themselves . But the subcomponent of the AC is much more difficult like the arresting bar system, the boiler, weapon elevator since they have to built it themselves. Varyag is incomplete only hull and propulsion system is completed. the electronic is 100% Chinese that is why they have to modified the island

By the time Shandong was built they change it to 3D drawing and completely master the design of AC. So building type 002 should not be so hard they are bigger version of Varyag except for EM catapult.

In January 2015, further details emerged in an interview with

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-based businessman Xu Zengping by the

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. Xu, a former

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basketball player, reported that he had been commissioned by the PLAN to purchase the vessel on its behalf, with the floating hotel and casino as a cover story. He was warned that the Chinese Navy did not have the budget to buy the ship, and the Chinese government did not support the purchase. However, Xu was so impressed when touring the ship that he resolved to purchase it using his personal funds. The previous year, Xu had borrowed HK$230 million from a Hong Kong business friend, spending HK$6 million to create Chong Lot as a Macau

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. He described a harrowing negotiation in

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, lubricated by bribery and liquor, which helped to arrange victory at the auction. As a precaution, he shipped 40 tonnes of the carrier's blueprints to China overland in eight trucks.

I am not sure if China is so far behind when it come to carrier type 002 come with Em catapult and plan is afoot to build the nuclear Carrier. Here is posting via JSch

From big cat,

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来自

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回复

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:我国核动力船三步走已经成定局，第一步海工产品已经交付使用一年，第二步核动力特种船巳经下水准备交付，第二条准备下水（注意特种船可没限定破冰船），第三步的核动力航母在几年之后。这和美帝没关系，美帝一样搞个八堆企业。而我们相应能力的核动力特种船持续出来。请注意第一第二步已经实现了。
Qitian big cat brother hand-painted special number
32 minutes ago from the iPhone client

Reply to @遥远的They: The three-step process of our nuclear-powered ships development process is a foregone conclusion and underway. The first step of having marine nuclear propulsion products have already been delivered for one year, the second step of having nuclear-powered special purpose ship has been launched and is ready for delivery, and the second ship is ready to be launched (note that special purpose ships may not be limited to icebreakers), the third step of nuclear-powered aircraft carrier would be a few years later. How China choose this steps has nothing to do with the U.S., who has also chosen to set up eight reactors enterprises. And our nuclear-powered special purpose ships with corresponding capabilities continue to come out. Please note that the first and second steps have already been implemented.

 

[weig2000]

i have no doubt at the beginning the Ukrainians could have given the Chinese much help in refurbishing the Liaoning. Liaoning was new to the Chinese and hearing why the ship was designed the way it was alone would have been a great help to the Chinese.

I doubt the ukrainians still had much to offer the Chinese by the time of Shandong, provided the Ukrainians themsleves still indeed remembered much of what they once knew.

I think by the time of carrier 3, the Chinese now know substantially more than the ukrainians ever did. There is nothing Remaining the Ukrainians ever knew that they could teach.

The US navy, Newport News yard, and Gibbs and Cox may have an unrivaled body of experience In designing and operating carriers, yet their vast experience is only a fraction of what is needed to actually design and manufacture a carrier from component up, Most of the Total body of experience actually resides with the huge sub contractor network spread across much of the US technological research and manufacturing infrastructure. That infrastructure has massively atrophied since mid 1980s. Much of the experience and skill in that network has undoubted been lost to retirement or scattered to the wind through mergers, Bankruptcies, Layoffs and Reorganizations. Due to the slow cadence of American carrier and warship construction, in between each bout of reinforcement of skill and experience, there is long period in which changes in the direction of wind of corporate whim and financial and fiscal reality can take Scatter that experience.

it would be inconceivable in the 1940s-1980s for the first in a new class of carriers to not reach fully operational status within a year or two of Commissioning.


just like after Washington and London naval treaties of the 1920s and 1930s, when low cadence of construction was enforced by treaty and made necessary by Britain’s fiscal situation, the Royal Navy still had more experience in designing and building battleships than anyone else. But The British industry was no longer up to the challenge of making efficiency t and trouble free gun mounts, or supply armor plate at a rate sufficient to allow the British to build battleships at the rate they once did prior to and during WWI.

So true. Complex eco-systems are fragile, in nature as in human society.

Years ago, I was doing some consulting work for GE Aircraft Engine. One of the managers that I worked closely told me once: you know why we're so good at doing aircraft engines? Because we know and work with many of the very special suppliers. In other words, they built and cultivated their eco-system of engines.

 

[Deino]

... he paid extra money for the drawing he said it in the interview with SCMP. ...

And here you should have stopped ready any further... SCMP and I'm almost sure it was ur special friend Minnie Chan again, as such it is deliberately wrong.

By the way, when the Liaoning entered service there were several reports confirming exactly the contrary, namely that China did not get the Varyag's plans.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

I doubt that Babich has anything to do with type 002 Carrier or Shandong When Xu Zengping bought Varyag he paid extra money for the drawing he said it in the interview with SCMP. But the Chinese latter found out they are incomplete. so they have to digitized all the blue print I guess that time ACAD is the popular program I have no doubt that have hard time doing it that is why it take them 5 years just to dissect,redraw, learn and another 7 years to actually retrofit it.
.....
As a precaution, he shipped 40 tonnes of the carrier's blueprints to China overland in eight trucks.

I am not sure if China is so far behind when it come to carrier type 002 come with Em catapult and plan is afoot to build the nuclear Carrier. Here is posting via JSch

It is hard for me to understand what you argue about.

Your point is that the without the Ukrainians China could have working carriers?

Or about that by digitising and copy an existing design the Navy mastered the design and manufacturing of newly designed carrier ?

I mean, there is no existing, Chinese designed carrier, so it is a bit hard to see how you came to this conclusion.

And additionally , the software is just a repository of knowledge, it requiring to gather the experience first to make it works.
Drawing in 3d doesn't make anyone expert in the design of anything. That requiring lot more than that - mainly experience.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

And here you should have stopped ready any further... SCMP and I'm almost sure it was ur special friend Minnie Chan again, as such it is deliberately wrong.

By the way, when the Liaoning entered service there were several reports confirming exactly the contrary, namely that China did not get the Varyag's plans.

Well not sure if the interview with Minnie Chan but the story come from Xu Zengpin himself He could lie but I don't think so He lost a fortune buying the Varyag and never get reimbursement since the people he deal with either dead or out of power

 

[by78]

Satellite update.