COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Embraer - not worth the hassle. US will roll over Brazil like an ant on the sidewalk.

Example : Last December, Trump slapped tariff on Brazil steel and aluminum when China bought soy bean from Brazil instead the US and Brazil capitulated to get the tariff rescinded.
Embraer wasn’t looking for partnership but sale. Had the deal gone through the E2 series would have become a Boeing brand to compete with Airbus 220 the former C series. This would have shifted Embraer back to smaller biz jets and tactical lines. However the Issues with the Max series of 737 and convid 19 air industry hold has pretty much put Boeing in a no go zone. The Max is now being used as a regulatory testing lab with every part being placed under the microscope and new qualifications being drafted off of it that will be applied to every new aircraft that enters production and sales.
Candidate for a partner.

Rolls Royce, Safran or Airbus - sure.
Taking it in reverse order,

Partnering with Airbus is questionable as the ARJ21 vs Airbus 220, the Comac 919 vs A320Neo and CRIAC A330Neo. I know auto makers do partner with the indigenous makers in China and many of the local Chinese brands bread and butter Are rebadged and indigenous models built on import power trains. Yet that’s a harder sell when the buyers are state owned and the builder is state owned and where with cars you can sell by the thousands it’s hundreds
The Smaller regional jets are the hot sellers these days. Tying to partner Airbus with Comac well having the inside track of the ARJ 21 to the Chinese market isn’t an easy sale.

Safran doesn’t have an engine option if the US decides to impose trade restrictions. The LEAP series is a 50/50 joint between Safran and GE. If GE is out so is LEAP. Unless the French buy out GE or they design a totally new engine.

Rolls Royce is of course British as such they are able to sell freely, unless the UK decides to enact restrictions of her own.
 

foxmulder_ms

Junior Member
That’s fine from the Chinese perspective but Embraer has to have a reason to get in to.
Frankly the whole thing is groundless.
Yes Embraer got burned from the Boeing joint. But why were they looking to crawl into bed with Boeing to begin with?
They had hoped to get a stronger foot in the US market and visa vi Airbus position themselves to counter the shifts into smaller birds.
To have Boeing back a play of the KC390 for replacement of C130 world wide and for the USAF, to position the E series as the bottom of the 7x7 line using Boeing to sure up their service network.
They hoped to Use Boeing as the same steppingstones that you want Comac to use Embraer for.

Obviously it is for money, market and beyond that survival. New E-series doesn't have the best order book.

China has potential for both market and money. Huge potential.

Also, military and civilian companies are separate for Embraer. KC390 has nothing to do with now dead Boeing deal.

Frankly, a Chinese E-series under "CB909" name will be a huge boost for Embraer. They can have a market they never even dreamed. I would say, in current situation, Embreer has much more to gain than COMAC does. Embraer has to have money. Either from Brazilian government or partnership or outright sale of the assets. They have been losing money for the last 10Qs or smt like that.

If China offers the same amount of money (~$4.2billion) Embraer will take it instantly. I am not sure COMAC sees the value in it though. What I was proposing is beyond a simple business transaction. I have been talking about a real collaboration exactly like Airbus.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Also, military and civilian companies are separate for Embraer. KC390 has nothing to do with now dead Boeing deal.
Quite to the contrary Embraer and Boeing’s deal started with the C390. The it was a joint venture that rebranded the KC390 to C390 Millennium. The reason for the reorganization of Embraer separating and isolating the defence arm was to ease the Boeing acquisition including of the C390 line.

Airbus bought out the C series that’s why it’s now A220. Comac could make the push but right now the regionals are where the market is. However Comac seems to want to go made in China from start to finish.
 

foxmulder_ms

Junior Member
Quite to the contrary Embraer and Boeing’s deal started with the C390. The it was a joint venture that rebranded the KC390 to C390 Millennium. The reason for the reorganization of Embraer separating and isolating the defence arm was to ease the Boeing acquisition including of the C390 line.

Airbus bought out the C series that’s why it’s now A220. Comac could make the push but right now the regionals are where the market is. However Comac seems to want to go made in China from start to finish.


This dead 4.2 billion deal was for Embraer Commercial Aviation.

KC390 (C390) is a product of Embraer Defense & Security.

The cancelled deal has nothing to do with KC390. Boeing and Embraer has a deal back in 2012 to work on KC390 together which is updated last year. It is still active and again very much independent of the canceled deal.
 

hullopilllw

Junior Member
Registered Member
Getting Embraer onboard is not going to help with this. And Embraer won't be interested because of this.

As soon as CR-929 shows sign of success, history will repeat itself. So Russia and China better focus on self reliance if they want to make the project a success. There is a lot of discussion on the subject in the C-919 thread.

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2028 Congress : Who supply American technology which enable the Chinese Communist Regime to compete unfairly in the global market and challenge Boeing.
 

by78

General
Recent FL-10 wind tunnel tests of landing gears and wing of an unspecified aircraft. The only candidate I can think of is the CR929.

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Wangxi

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russians and Chinese disagree about the CR929 widebody jet program


A joint Chinese and Russian project, the CR929 widebody aircraft is undergoing new difficulties. According to statement by the general director of Irkut, Ravil Khakimov, deliveries of the model, developed in partnership with COMAC, should occur only in 2028 or 2029. Until then, the forecast by CRAIC, the joint venture of the two companies, was for a twin-aisle twin-engine to debut in 2027 after a two-year flight test campaign.

At the moment, we are at the stage of collecting and analyzing proposals from all suppliers to determine the final configuration of the aircraft. It was planned to complete this work in 2020 and, in 2021, move on to the contracting phase with all co-contractors. and suppliers,” Khakimov explained to the Russian government’s economic policy committee on Wednesday. “But, unfortunately, there are difficulties in working together with Chinese partners, so this phase could be changed to 2021”, added the general director of Irkut.


Different focuses

The joint venture between COMAC and Irkut, part of the UAC group, was launched in May 2017 with optimistic perspectives as it brought together two old partners from the times of communism in a joint work that seemed perfect. The Chinese wanted the Russians’ experience with complex aircraft designs while they saw the Chinese government’s injection of resources as the solution to make the program viable.

However, society is beginning to show signs of fraying. According to the Russian press, COMAC intends to have the exclusive sale of CR929 on the Chinese domestic market, leaving Irkut to exploit customers from other countries. As is known, competing with giants like Airbus and Boeing is an almost impossible task.

Irkut’s estimate indicates that the Russian market should absorb 50 aircraft like the CR929 in the next 20 years while in China there is a much greater potential, from 450 to 500 units.



Market with few competitors

Developing a widebody aircraft is one of the biggest challenges in the aerospace industry. Few companies have succeeded in this market and even famous names like Lockheed have failed – with the L-1011 Tristar tri-jet.

Russia, through Ilyushin, developed the four-engine aircraft Il-86 and later the most efficient
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, but both planes had modest production – less than 150 units were produced. China, meanwhile, has invested heavily in recent years to make its first commercial aircraft, the
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and C919, both single-aisle viable.

For that reason, the CR929 seemed to be the ideal solution. With three variants planned, the twin engine aircraft will be able to carry 250 to 320 passengers and compete with the Boeing 777 and Airbus A350. Initial studies predict a range of 10,000 km to 14,000 km, depending on the version. Half of the fuselage structure will use composite materials, part of the scope of COMAC.


The choice of the new jet’s turbofan engine has been complicated. UAC has been talking to Rolls-Royce and GE as alternatives to an export variant, but at the same time they are studying a native solution or in partnership with the Chinese.

The aviation crisis triggered by the coronavirus pandemic, however, can make the future of the CR929 quite difficult. If more robust programs like the
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and A350 suffer from cut orders, what can be expected from an unprecedented Sino-Russian widebody.

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