COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

latenlazy said:

Your examples don’t disprove that all airlines keep a surplus of planes to rotate in and out for service, so whether a flight number flies consistently tells us absolutely nothing about what the service downtime and frequency of a plane is. Evidence is pretty useless if you don’t have a good conceptual understanding of what you’re talking about. In this case that basic conceptual understanding you seem to be missing is the particulars of fleet management, which is one of the primary factors shaping buying decisions for airliners. Mechanical performance is not an issue for on time arrival. It’s an issue for lifetime operations costs. Less reliable planes either means you have to limit your route frequencies where that plane is used, or it means you need to buy more planes to fill in for schedule rotations to compensate for downtime frequency and duration.

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latenlazy said:

Certification doesn’t tell you anything about product reliability. It just means that the plane passed a bunch of safety benchmarks. Let me try a simple analogy here. Both a Ford Focus and Toyota Corolla are certified products. Does that mean the Ford is as reliable as the Toyota?

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pmc said:

Russia has been testing this engine on MS21 for few years. Russia do tests to the extremes. so i am not sure why you bring Irish example which is basically a service based economy. 30 year nothing when you understand how difficult this transition from Soviet era with creating assembly lines for all class of aircraft in new and modernized factories. Airbus and Boeing dont make all class of aircraft and if they produce the factories are spread around the world. That global supply chain model does not suit Russia. It is Airbus/Boeing that had Engineering center in Russia. it is Airbus/Boeing that need Russian titanium/Palladium. They will face difficulties once current agreements/stocks runs out. This assume that can keep lights on current electricity prices.

its Thai airforce. i am sure they have done competitive tests and know what they bought.

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China and India are too used to Western airlines. I am sure they will come under pressure as West face economic decline and West will have to take more money from India/China on every engineering product. Russia will not follow them and has quickly disposed off Western jets from regional airports. Unlike other countries Russian airports are considerable distance so they have the experience to apply to MS21 and any wide body aircraft.

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tphuang said:

Okay, I listened to the Shilao clip. It makes me think that the future of Russia/China joint projects in aerospace industry will be very hard to do. You get the impression that Russian aerospace industry still think of China as the China of 2005. If Russia continues to hold a dismissive view toward China, then no projects will be possible really. Given that Russia has had such a profound impact on China's aerospace industry, it's probably tough for the Russians to look at China as their equals in a project like this. I also don't see how Russia would be interested in buying aerospace equipment from China as long as they see Chinese aerospace industry as inferior to theirs.

I think it's important to note that while MS-21 seems to be a more advanced design than C919, a modern airline project is more than just the operational cost numbers. More important factors are the availability, reliability and maintainability of the aircraft. That's the side that A321NEO/737MAX has China and Russia crushed. Even, A220 has gotten the title of hangar queen from some people, because it's just not as available as A321NEO. And when we talk about maintenance and servicing, it's also about the suppliers. There is a reason C919 is going with many Western suppliers. They have well established international network and can service customers. It'd be hard for MS-21 or C919 to get orders outside of their home market without established suppliers. In China's case, it probably will need to have enough people sign up to C919 locally and build up local supplier network. Even then, the government will need to jump in and compensate the airlines when a domestic configured configured run into issues and the domestic supplier is having a hard time addressing it. That's why you see them doing these testing with Western suppliers. That's far and away the fastest way for C919 to get certified and delivered. Long term, they will probably develop domestic suppliers and sell them to various ministries or incentivize certain smaller domestic airlines to use them. There is really no other way to develop them, imo.

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Philister said:

First of all, I don’t know much about India, but China used tu-154 till 2000s, and the fleet were quiet large.

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Philister said:

2.Ireland being a service based economy has nothing to do with the poor reliability of this aircraft.

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Philister said:

3.Stop lecturing how hard it is to transfer after Soviet Union, every socialist country does that, if you don’t adapt well, you are stupid and should be ruled out
4. Russian titanium and palladium are cheaper, not necessary

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Philister said:

5. Thailand bought too much shit I don’t know where to start

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siegecrossbow said:

Seems like the so called cooperation is just an excuse to get Russian experts free meals and accommodations and shopping opportunities in China.

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tphuang said:

Okay, I listened to the Shilao clip. It makes me think that the future of Russia/China joint projects in aerospace industry will be very hard to do. You get the impression that Russian aerospace industry still think of China as the China of 2005. If Russia continues to hold a dismissive view toward China, then no projects will be possible really. Given that Russia has had such a profound impact on China's aerospace industry, it's probably tough for the Russians to look at China as their equals in a project like this. I also don't see how Russia would be interested in buying aerospace equipment from China as long as they see Chinese aerospace industry as inferior to theirs.

I think it's important to note that while MS-21 seems to be a more advanced design than C919, a modern airline project is more than just the operational cost numbers. More important factors are the availability, reliability and maintainability of the aircraft. That's the side that A321NEO/737MAX has China and Russia crushed. Even, A220 has gotten the title of hangar queen from some people, because it's just not as available as A321NEO. And when we talk about maintenance and servicing, it's also about the suppliers. There is a reason C919 is going with many Western suppliers. They have well established international network and can service customers. It'd be hard for MS-21 or C919 to get orders outside of their home market without established suppliers. In China's case, it probably will need to have enough people sign up to C919 locally and build up local supplier network. Even then, the government will need to jump in and compensate the airlines when a domestic configured configured run into issues and the domestic supplier is having a hard time addressing it. That's why you see them doing these testing with Western suppliers. That's far and away the fastest way for C919 to get certified and delivered. Long term, they will probably develop domestic suppliers and sell them to various ministries or incentivize certain smaller domestic airlines to use them. There is really no other way to develop them, imo.

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gadgetcool5 said:

The problem is, no matter how good the Western suppliers are or how good their networks, it doesn't matter if it's not available to China. Even if the Western suppliers were x10 better and cheaper than they are now, it wouldn't make a whit of difference from the standpoint of China. The West today is out to suppress China, period. Therefore, any use of Western suppliers is foolish.

If you want to use Western suppliers, give Taiwan independence, apologize to Ugyhurs and call a general election with multi parties. Then you can have all the Western suppliers in the world and they will be as reliable as gold. Otherwise, the only partner is Russia. These are the choices facing China.

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gadgetcool5 said:

The problem is, no matter how good the Western suppliers are or how good their networks, it doesn't matter if it's not available to China. Even if the Western suppliers were x10 better and cheaper than they are now, it wouldn't make a whit of difference from the standpoint of China. The West today is out to suppress China, period. Therefore, any use of Western suppliers is foolish.

If you want to use Western suppliers, give Taiwan independence, apologize to Ugyhurs and call a general election with multi parties. Then you can have all the Western suppliers in the world and they will be as reliable as gold. Otherwise, the only partner is Russia. These are the choices facing China.

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gadgetcool5 said:

If you want to use Western suppliers, give Taiwan independence, apologize to Ugyhurs and call a general election with multi parties. Then you can have all the Western suppliers in the world and they will be as reliable as gold. Otherwise, the only partner is Russia. These are the choices facing China.

Click to expand...