CRAIC CR929 Widebody Airliner


Orthan

Junior Member
Fear, fakes and pledges as CRAIC CR929 inches forward
i dont think that this article gave any indication that the CR929 problems betwen russia and china have been resolved, beyond a vague bilateral political statement.

I still think that this project will lead to nothing. And besides, china has more technological priorities now.
 

Atomicfrog

New Member
Registered Member
Build or design a plane with partners is good knowledge whatever the result. European and American are doing that for decades now. Youa can learn by buying stuff but it have some limits...
 

Orthan

Junior Member
Build or design a plane with partners is good knowledge whatever the result.
Not really. Results matter when you invest a lot of time and effort. Sino-russian partnership in CR929 is much more complicated than the european one (airbus). The russians, for obvious reasons, dont want to share tech with the chinese and china has a much bigger market than russia.
 

Atomicfrog

New Member
Registered Member
Not really. Results matter when you invest a lot of time and effort. Sino-russian partnership in CR929 is much more complicated than the european one (airbus). The russians, for obvious reasons, dont want to share tech with the chinese and china has a much bigger market than russia.
Blackmail is part of working with other country... it's part of the learning process. It's a big game.
 

Atomicfrog

New Member
Registered Member
Easier said than done, specially when you are dealing with national interests.
Never said it was easy... it's just that it can bring knowledge that you cannot get alone fast enough. The number of partnership that turned to vinegar is astonishing high between the US and Europe, but still, new ones emerge all the time.
 

Orthan

Junior Member
The number of partnership that turned to vinegar is astonishing high between the US and Europe, but still, new ones emerge all the time.
You cant compare the relationship betwen the US and europe and the relationship betwen russia and china. The latter is much more distrustful.
 

Atomicfrog

New Member
Registered Member
You cant compare the relationship betwen the US and europe and the relationship betwen russia and china. The latter is much more distrustful.
Maybe, but would you trust a aerospace development deal between the US and China ? I don't see a lot of partner who will bring knowledge to make a widebody with China, beside Russia. Not sur if it will work but it's woth trying no?
 

gelgoog

Senior Member
Registered Member
Not really. Results matter when you invest a lot of time and effort. Sino-russian partnership in CR929 is much more complicated than the european one (airbus). The russians, for obvious reasons, dont want to share tech with the chinese and china has a much bigger market than russia.
Is it? Just look at Airbus. Their airplanes use wings made in the UK. Rolls Royce (UK) engines are often one the options available.
The other engine option, if there is one, is typically GE-Safran i.e. US/French engine. A350 program is one example.

Boeing 787 program has wings made in Japan and some airframe parts are made in Italy and it is all assembled in the US.
You can purchase Rolls Royce (UK) engine for it. Or US engine.

This program would be no different. Only difference could be massive national ego and pride which in this case would be a serious waste.
Some people think that alone will make it impossible. I don't know about that. If the UK and France, with their massive egos, can cooperate in a civilian transport airplane so can Russia and China.

Final assembly would be in China and the Russians would manufacture the wings and make available the PD-35 engine to the clients who want to use it. I think China should learn to walk before they run. It is not solidarity to Russia or whatever. Going solo will, in the end, take longer and provide worse results. That I am certain of.

Just look at all the design problems the C919 program has been having vs the MC-21 program. The MC-21 thus far has had a much more smooth sailing program engineering wise because the team is more experienced and they have better engineering models for how to build such aircraft. Russia still retains the Tupolev and Ilyushin bureau personnel who designed the Tu-204 and Il-96 in the early 1990s. They have the Sukhoi team who designed the SuperJet. Also now the team who designed the MC-21. In time China will also get that experience but right now they lack it. Rookie mistakes like getting the engine nacelle dimensions wrong is one example.

Look at all the problems Russia is having with the Il-112 military transport. Similar to problems Chinese are having with the C919. Weight creep and wrong center of gravity on an aircraft. Rookie mistakes. Why? Russia was supposed to buy that class of aircraft from Antonov in Ukraine but because they couldn't they picked up the airframe design they had made for the Il-276 project and scaled it down on a computer. Guess what, the engines don't weigh the same, they didn't even know the engine performance back then, and then they got an aircraft with the wrong center of mass and excess weight. Rookie mistakes. That's what you would get with a C929 program I think. Lots and lots of rookie mistakes. The Il-112 is delayed at least two years for that and still has excess airframe weight. It is a much more 'simple' aircraft in comparison with a widebody airliner.

The Russians and Chinese just need to do the same as Airbus or Boeing does. It is like I said the Russians already have the composite wing technology (proven in the MC-21 program) and they have done wind tunnel testing of the airframe design (not a lot of people know about this but Russia has some of the most advanced wind tunnels in the world, especially for hypersonics). They are also in the middle of a program to make the PD-35 engine which will be a scale up of the existing PD-14 engine but with more modern materials. Right now they are doing component testing of some of the materials. The Russians claim the engine will be ready in 2025 (I kind of doubt it, but it's not impossible).

Compare that with the Chinese. Some experience in building aircraft in the weight class below the MC-21, including composite fuselages for Bombardier, no experience with large composite wings, zero experience with large aviation jet engines. Now, let's say great, we can source an engine from the West and not use composite wings and it will be ok? Well, no. Not when the all composite 787 is around in the market at least for two decades by then. This airplane will arrive a lot later so if it is that much obsolete from the onset it won't be competitive at all. Then imagine the West simply sanctions China. What then? Will you be one or two decades waiting for a Chinese engine which may never come? By that time that 'new' Chinese airplane will be as obsolete as a 767 is. Because that is what you will get in a reasonable timeframe with available technology to China right now. A 767 equivalent a decade or two from now. A non-composite wing twin engine aircraft with 1990s era engine technology.

The Russians spent at least a decade developing that composite wing and they already had prior experience with large aircraft with the Il-96. The Il-96 can be considered as a sort of A340 equivalent aircraft. They didn't skip steps like this.

The web site said what gives with the Il-96-400M and the CRAIC 929 programs at the same time? Surely the CRAIC 929 is doomed! Well the thing is the Russian government needs airframes for government purposes right now. They can't wait the 5 or 7 years it will take for this new aircraft to become available. Also if they want to sell airplanes to countries like Iran today they need something they can 100% reliably deliver to the client without export restrictions. Same reason why the Russians still manufacture the Tupolev 204SM for government purposes like ELINT aircraft at the same time the Irkut MC-21 is being test flown right now. It does not mean it is doomed.
 
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Totoro

Captain
VIP Professional
I believe size choice was/is also flawed. It would have been better for commercial sales if middle of market sized plane was the goal. So something in between b757 and b767.
 

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