COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner
- Thread starter Iron Man
- Start date
This news is kind of old by now but I don't remember seeing it posted here before.
UEC starts testing PD-35 fan demonstrator using composite blades, Russia’s first
The 35 t thrust-class advanced engine to hopefully power the Sino-Russian CR929 wide-body
Posted on July 29th, 2020 by in ,
Technology demonstrator of PD-35 engine fan at the test bench in Perm, Russia (UEC)
The first stage of testing of the PD-35 engine fan demonstrator was conducted successfully on June 27 in , Alexander Inozemtsev, managing director and chief designer of Perm-based UEC-Aviadvigatel reported. The technology demonstrator is the first in Russia to use blades made of composite materials.
Since the PD-35 engine is still at the research and development stage, the fan demonstrator was scaled down to fit the smaller PD-14 engine, on which it was tested, Inozemtsev explains. Further schedule include overspeed tests in August and testing within the flying testbed in 2021. Flight tests of the actual-size PD-35 demonstrator won’t begin until 2025. Its diameter will exceed 3 meters, more than 50 per cent larger than the existing demonstrator, reveals executive director of United Engine Corporation (UEC) Valery Geikin.
Use of composite blades is expected to reduce the weight of the engine by 400 kg, thus improving its fuel efficiency. Once the technology is tried and tested with the current demonstrator, UEC may decide to adopt it for the PD-14 as well. However, due to its smaller size the weight reduction will not be as significant compared to the hollow titanium blades the PD-14 is equipped with now. “If we manage to reduce the weight of PD-14 by 20 or 30 kg, we might convince the airlines [to switch to this option],” Inozemtsev reasons.
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Composite blades for PD-35 are made of Russian-produced composite materials developed by Russian Research Institute of Aviation Materials (known by its Russian acronym VIAM). They are one of the 18 innovations incorporated on the new engine. A composite fan frame is also being designed, as well as a new high pressure compressor, low emission combustion chamber, a laminar nacelle and other advanced components.
United Engine Corporation contracted its subsidiary UEC-Aviadvigatel to develop the PD-35 demonstrator in 2017. The programme will require av investment of 180 billion roubles (US$ 2.5 billion). Serial production is planned for 2028.
UEC is counting on the base version of the 35 t thrust PD-35 to power the Sino-Russian wide-body programme CR929. However, Ravil Khakimov, head of Irkut corporation, which leads CR929 development from the Russian side, revealed earlier that line-up of the programme’s suppliers is postponed to 2021, and its market entry has shifted to 2028 or 2029. Rolls-Royce and General Electric engines were also considered for the aircraft.
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Given the level of investment the Russians are putting on the PD-35 engine I doubt this project will not go forward.
The PD-35 is specifically designed for this class of aircraft and it would be silly to use it on an older airframe design.
It is risible to assume they would use an older airframe design they aren't even producing to begin with. If you have to build new facilities with not go with a new design?
On the Chinese side given the amounts of capital available and the high amount of aircraft imports plus the US trade restrictions this is also considered a priority project.
On any project like this there will be issues with workshare. Both countries want to retain some capabilities. But given political will I think a compromise is possible.
The PD-35 is specifically designed for this class of aircraft and it would be silly to use it on an older airframe design.
It is risible to assume they would use an older airframe design they aren't even producing to begin with. If you have to build new facilities with not go with a new design?
On the Chinese side given the amounts of capital available and the high amount of aircraft imports plus the US trade restrictions this is also considered a priority project.
On any project like this there will be issues with workshare. Both countries want to retain some capabilities. But given political will I think a compromise is possible.
Just to iterate on this further.
The Russians wouldn't produce an obsolete quad engine like the Il-86. They would need to convert it to a dual engine for engines with a much larger diameter. This basically means they'll have to design a new wing and wing box which is one of the most expensive parts in an aircraft. With not go with a whole new design? I do know there are talks about converting the Il-96 to a two engine design but I doubt that would be that easy to do either. An aircraft has fuel lines, pumps, control lines, and things like that. It would also shift the weight distribution in both the wings and the aircraft. I think it is silly to assume it would end up cheaper than building a new aircraft plus there is a reason the Il-96 isn't selling. It isn't fuel efficient enough. Why? Because it is a quad engine that uses older aircraft construction materials which makes it heavier and less fuel efficient. Even Aeroflot doesn't want it. Now some in Illyushin might be selling this project as an Il-96 replacement to convince the state it will be cheaper but it won't and it will doom sales.
The Chinese industry has a huge technical gap to cover which might take 15 years. The Russians have been working on large aircraft engines for a longer time. Even in the 1990s they were constantly modernizing the PS-90. Had, say, the Chinese acquired the Progress D-18T engine design from Ukraine in the early 2000s and iterated on that, I think they could have been ahead by now but it wasn't a state priority then. Designing the airframe without composites will also be a mistake because, while the A330 is still selling, the 787 has been out for years already. By the time the CRAIC 929 would be out it would be like 4 decades obsolete. In smaller aircraft like the CRAIC 919 the situation is different since the A320 and 737 use older fuselages to begin with and the program is already in its last stages. So just using a modern design with metal construction is competitive enough.
The Russians wouldn't produce an obsolete quad engine like the Il-86. They would need to convert it to a dual engine for engines with a much larger diameter. This basically means they'll have to design a new wing and wing box which is one of the most expensive parts in an aircraft. With not go with a whole new design? I do know there are talks about converting the Il-96 to a two engine design but I doubt that would be that easy to do either. An aircraft has fuel lines, pumps, control lines, and things like that. It would also shift the weight distribution in both the wings and the aircraft. I think it is silly to assume it would end up cheaper than building a new aircraft plus there is a reason the Il-96 isn't selling. It isn't fuel efficient enough. Why? Because it is a quad engine that uses older aircraft construction materials which makes it heavier and less fuel efficient. Even Aeroflot doesn't want it. Now some in Illyushin might be selling this project as an Il-96 replacement to convince the state it will be cheaper but it won't and it will doom sales.
The Chinese industry has a huge technical gap to cover which might take 15 years. The Russians have been working on large aircraft engines for a longer time. Even in the 1990s they were constantly modernizing the PS-90. Had, say, the Chinese acquired the Progress D-18T engine design from Ukraine in the early 2000s and iterated on that, I think they could have been ahead by now but it wasn't a state priority then. Designing the airframe without composites will also be a mistake because, while the A330 is still selling, the 787 has been out for years already. By the time the CRAIC 929 would be out it would be like 4 decades obsolete. In smaller aircraft like the CRAIC 919 the situation is different since the A320 and 737 use older fuselages to begin with and the program is already in its last stages. So just using a modern design with metal construction is competitive enough.
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I think you want to separate the engine from the development of the aircraft. There are multiple engine choices. You can choose western ones, Russian, or Chinese. I don't believe the CR929 project include the joint development of the corresponding engine. So both Russia and China can develop and own their won engine.
CR929 is a 50/50 joint venture which does NOT include developing an engine for it. The choice of engines are open, even RR is interested.
The Russian stance according to Denis Manturov is "we have the goal not to share technologies, but to get an external market". So his position (or Russia's real position) is that by investing 50% in development, they want 50% of market share. 50% investment means 50% profit from the development work, BUT it is different thing from 50% of market share and 50% of production run.
Mr. Denis missed a point that China is not lack of monetary investment, China does NOT need the 50% cash from Russia, neither is Russian market being profitable enough. The only reason that China get into this JV is Russian technology. If sharing technologies is out of the equation, there is no reason for the JV.
If this is the Russian position (not a negotiation tactic), then I think CR929 should go back to C929, with Russia being one of the candidate suppliers of engine if Russia is happy and willing to be just a sub-contractor.
The Russian stance according to Denis Manturov is "we have the goal not to share technologies, but to get an external market". So his position (or Russia's real position) is that by investing 50% in development, they want 50% of market share. 50% investment means 50% profit from the development work, BUT it is different thing from 50% of market share and 50% of production run.
Mr. Denis missed a point that China is not lack of monetary investment, China does NOT need the 50% cash from Russia, neither is Russian market being profitable enough. The only reason that China get into this JV is Russian technology. If sharing technologies is out of the equation, there is no reason for the JV.
If this is the Russian position (not a negotiation tactic), then I think CR929 should go back to C929, with Russia being one of the candidate suppliers of engine if Russia is happy and willing to be just a sub-contractor.
If Russia doesn't want to share all technologies, it should at least share some technologies. This is normal. They are afraid that if they share all technologies, China will no longer need them and leave them in the cold. So China cannot expect the latest technology. But Russia should at least share some technology with China, with the understanding that otherwise China is not getting anything out of the project. The reality is, I'm sure there are some other areas China has technologies that Russia wants, as well.
Bottom line is there should be able to be some compromise made if both sides are reasonable to the slightest degree. Western countries always share technology, take for example GE-Safran collaboration, or Cymer-ASML collaboration. You cannot be so jealous of the other party that you shoot yourself in the foot.
Bottom line is there should be able to be some compromise made if both sides are reasonable to the slightest degree. Western countries always share technology, take for example GE-Safran collaboration, or Cymer-ASML collaboration. You cannot be so jealous of the other party that you shoot yourself in the foot.