Chinese semiconductor industry


WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
@Overbom Yup BUT the article is correct regarding the breakthroughs BUT the Timeline is too optimistic...lol, we have to wait until they finished the SSMB construction in 2025. I think the article meaning of delivery is that they finished the project not the product itself. (due to construction constraint). And @WTAN Sir an Official confirmation? Seems like they're confident on going the SSMB route?
This is probably one of the many subtle confirmations that we will see more of in the coming years leading up to 2025.
I believe that there are 2 Official EUVL Light Source projects being pursued and it is LPP and SSMB.
In 2025 or even earlier, if a large part of the equipment is installed and it works as planned, they will certainly go ahead with SSMB as a Light Source for Domestic EUVL.
Personally speaking, it is probably easier in terms of technical difficulty to develop SSMB than to develop LPP.
LPP is extremely complicated and requires a powerful MOPA Laser and the ability to irradiate a tiny tin droplet in vacuum to generate EUV radiation.
Also not mentioning the Patent issues with this Light Source.
I am not saying China cant develop LPP, it can if it really wants to.
But the Synchrotron being a more traditional type of technology, would be less technically difficult and hence a greater chance of success.
 

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
The building that you are talking about is about this project
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It is about research in physics as X-ray microscopes.

The SSMB EUV project that #10,511 talked about is a different one that is to be built in Qinghua University. It is specifically designed for EUV machine. See here
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y
CAS has also joined the SSMB R&D initiative after Huawei sought help from them.
The 2 SSMB Light Source articles posted by Old School and Ansy refer to the new Beijing HEPS Synchrotron which is currently under construction.
I have heard that Tsinghua Uni is collaborating with CAS.
The Tsinghua Uni Synchrotron has not started construction yet.
The Tsinghua Uni joint research with the US and Germany may not even continue in light of the new Cold War scenario between China and the US.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Major
Registered Member
How much energy does such a thing consume I assume running the synchrotron 24/7 will consume a lot more energy then doing some research when needed. Also maintainance of the synchrotron when running it 24/7
Research synchrotrons are 24/7 everywhere. They all have hotel facilities and 3 engineering shifts on site for that purpose. They never shut down because a restart costs literal tons of money. There's 2 types of maintenance. One is a vacuum maintenance. This will require a cold restart and is extremely costly. The other is an atmospheric maintenance which is essentially nothing in comparison and can often be done hot.

A mini mobile synchrotron (has been built since the 40s) for SSMB would be more expensive per unit output and may have fewer end stations and constrain fab layout but you also wouldn't need 1 per EUV lithography machine, maybe 1 for multiple, so the only duplicate costs are the optics and stages, not the light source.
 

Weaasel

Junior Member
Registered Member
CAS has also joined the SSMB R&D initiative after Huawei sought help from them.
The 2 SSMB Light Source articles posted by Old School and Ansy refer to the new Beijing HEPS Synchrotron which is currently under construction.
I have heard that Tsinghua Uni is collaborating with CAS.
The Tsinghua Uni Synchrotron has not started construction yet.
The Tsinghua Uni joint research with the US and Germany may not even continue in light of the new Cold War scenario between China and the US.
Do you remember the song by Celine Dion, "Right in Front of You, Right in Front of Me"?

It might indeed be that in the case of looking to find the solution to produce EUV radiation for lithography is, was, and has been RIGHT THERE IN FRONT ALL THIS TIME, but all this time one has been looking somewhere and elsewhere that someway and somehow one couldn't see that the answer was right there, it's been been around for many years. It seems incredible, but now one has finally seen, that it been RIGHT THERE IN FRONT ALL THIS TIME.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
SSMB is extremely expensive and it is not easy to assemble synchrotron or FELs .
If you ask me it seems to an amazing step forward for synchrotron light sources but not really viable for semiconductor manufacturing.
Construction of a storage ring is too expensive and tedious . It will be used for pure research but at an industrial scale it is very impractical.
@Hyper On the contraire bro, a single synchrotron cost more than the same as one ASML NXT 3400 EUVL between $150-180 million, the Cymer LPP occupy 30% of the cost. So IF SSMB is used and let say we put in 5 EUVL machine which is cheaper? any mathematic method even the India Vedic System will have the same answer...lol It's a revolutionary leap, now combine with a domestic LPP it will destroy ASML monopoly.

An sample from WIKI China SSRF

The Shanghai Synchrotron Radiation Facility (SSRF) (
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: 上海光源) is a
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-radiation light source facility in
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,
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. Located in an eighteen-hectare campus at Shanghai National Synchrotron Radiation Centre, on the
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in the
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district.
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SSRF is operated by the Shanghai Institute of Applied Physics (SINAP). The facility became operational in 2009, reaching full energy operation in Dec 2012.

When it opened, it was China's costliest single science facility.
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The facility "has played a key role in revealing the inner mechanism of various cancers."
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Construction[
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]​

It has a circumference of 432 metres, and is designed to operate at 3.5
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, the highest energy of any synchrotron other than the Big Three facilities
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in Hyōgo Prefecture, Japan,
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in Grenoble, France and
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at Argonne National labs, United States. It will initially have eight beamlines.

The particle accelerator cost 1.2 billion
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(
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176 million).
It is China's biggest light facility.
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It is located under a building with a futuristic snail-shaped roof.

The synchrotron opened to universities, scientific institutes and companies for approved research in May 2009.
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  • Dec. 2004 - Sept. 2006: Building construction
  • Jun. 2005 - Mar. 2008: Accelerator equipment and components manufacture and assembly
  • Dec. 2005 - Dec. 2008: Beamline construction and assembly
  • Apr. 2007 - Jul. 2007: Linac commissioning
  • Oct. 2007 - Mar. 2008: Booster commissioning
  • Apr. 2008 - Oct. 2008: Storage ring commissioning
  • Nov. 2008 - Mar. 2009: ID Beamline commissioning
  • Apr. 2009: The SSRF operation begins
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

References​

 

Weaasel

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do you remember the song by Celine Dion, "Right in Front of You, Right in Front of Me"?

It might indeed be that in the case of looking to find the solution to produce EUV radiation for lithography is, was, and has been RIGHT THERE IN FRONT ALL THIS TIME, but all this time one has been looking somewhere and elsewhere that someway and somehow one couldn't see that the answer was right there, it's been been around for many years. It seems incredible, but now one has finally seen, that it been RIGHT THERE IN FRONT ALL THIS TIME.
According to the electromagnetic theory, electromagnetic radiation is emitted due to acceleration of charged particles - something that I first read since the 90s... Synchrotron radiation of electrons accelerated and circulated within and around synchrotrons has long been one way of demonstrating that theory. I have long read about the particles of particle accelerators producing emitting EM radiation. I have just been reminded that x-rays are produced in synchrotrons. They are more energetic per unit photon and have shorter wavelengths than all UV bandwidths...Since synchrotrons can be adjusted to vary the magnitude of energy and hence rates of acceleration and velocities reached by electrons and other charged particles being accelerated within them, it therefore means that UV radiation is also produced (being produced before x-rays) in synchrotrons...

THE POINT THAT I AM ARRIVING AT IS EUV radiation and X-rays have been produced by synchrotrons and other particle accelerators from their very inception, long long before Cymer or Gigaphoton produced mysterious (to me and almost everyone else) light sources that can be and are used to irradiate and vapourize tens of thousands of droplets of tin per second, transforming the droplets to plasma state that emit EUV radiation. So why is it that it is only now that serious consideration is being undertaken to apply particle accelerator to produce UV radiation for lithography applications to make IC chips?
 

Weaasel

Junior Member
Registered Member
According to the electromagnetic theory, electromagnetic radiation is emitted due to acceleration of charged particles - something that I first read since the 90s... Synchrotron radiation of electrons accelerated and circulated within and around synchrotrons has long been one way of demonstrating that theory. I have long read about the particles of particle accelerators producing emitting EM radiation. I have just been reminded that x-rays are produced in synchrotrons. They are more energetic per unit photon and have shorter wavelengths than all UV bandwidths...Since synchrotrons can be adjusted to vary the magnitude of energy and hence rates of acceleration and velocities reached by electrons and other charged particles being accelerated within them, it therefore means that UV radiation is also produced (being produced before x-rays) in synchrotrons...

THE POINT THAT I AM ARRIVING AT IS EUV radiation and X-rays have been produced by synchrotrons and other particle accelerators from their very inception, long long before Cymer or Gigaphoton produced mysterious (to me and almost everyone else) light sources that can be and are used to irradiate and vapourize tens of thousands of droplets of tin per second, transforming the droplets to plasma state that emit EUV radiation. So why is it that it is only now that serious consideration is being undertaken to apply particle accelerator to produce UV radiation for lithography applications to make IC chips?
I never paid much attention to particle accelerators - certainly not with regards to their detailed technicalities - with the exception of their application to produce antimatter when the particles that they accelerate collide (I am a Futurist and SciFi geek as well who has interest in antimatter for possible future electric power generation and for spacecraft propulsion) , though I do and did know their basic operating principles, until a couple of days ago when SSMB was again mentioned on this thread after months of not having been mentioned.
 

tokenanalyst

Captain
Registered Member
According to the electromagnetic theory, electromagnetic radiation is emitted due to acceleration of charged particles - something that I first read since the 90s... Synchrotron radiation of electrons accelerated and circulated within and around synchrotrons has long been one way of demonstrating that theory. I have long read about the particles of particle accelerators producing emitting EM radiation. I have just been reminded that x-rays are produced in synchrotrons. They are more energetic per unit photon and have shorter wavelengths than all UV bandwidths...Since synchrotrons can be adjusted to vary the magnitude of energy and hence rates of acceleration and velocities reached by electrons and other charged particles being accelerated within them, it therefore means that UV radiation is also produced (being produced before x-rays) in synchrotrons...

THE POINT THAT I AM ARRIVING AT IS EUV radiation and X-rays have been produced by synchrotrons and other particle accelerators from their very inception, long long before Cymer or Gigaphoton produced mysterious (to me and almost everyone else) light sources that can be and are used to irradiate and vapourize tens of thousands of droplets of tin per second, transforming the droplets to plasma state that emit EUV radiation. So why is it that it is only now that serious consideration is being undertaken to apply particle accelerator to produce UV radiation for lithography applications to make IC chips?
I think light from a normal synchrotrons is all scattered and had low repetition rate. With microbuching is more coherent, more packed and have higher repetition rate, kinda like an excimer laser.

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page 8

The concept for this type of light source was proposed by Stanford in 2010, the experiments started in 2017 and a experimental demonstration was archived by a Sino-German team in 2019, the paper was published in early 2021.
DPP and LPP for EUV lithography has been researched since the 90s if my memory doesn't fail my guess nobody was seriously considering an accelerator for EUV and more less with Arf immersion in the corner.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Do you remember the song by Celine Dion, "Right in Front of You, Right in Front of Me"?

It might indeed be that in the case of looking to find the solution to produce EUV radiation for lithography is, was, and has been RIGHT THERE IN FRONT ALL THIS TIME, but all this time one has been looking somewhere and elsewhere that someway and somehow one couldn't see that the answer was right there, it's been been around for many years. It seems incredible, but now one has finally seen, that it been RIGHT THERE IN FRONT ALL THIS TIME.

Like NASA spent $10M to create a pen in the space against gravity and Soviet just use a pencil ;)
 

horse

Captain
Registered Member
@Hyper On the contraire bro, a single synchrotron cost more than the same as one ASML NXT 3400 EUVL between $150-180 million, the Cymer LPP occupy 30% of the cost. So IF SSMB is used and let say we put in 5 EUVL machine which is cheaper? any mathematic method even the India Vedic System will have the same answer...lol It's a revolutionary leap, now combine with a domestic LPP it will destroy ASML monopoly.

An sample from WIKI China SSRF

The Shanghai Synchrotron Radiation Facility (SSRF) (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
: 上海光源) is a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
-radiation light source facility in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Located in an eighteen-hectare campus at Shanghai National Synchrotron Radiation Centre, on the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
district.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


SSRF is operated by the Shanghai Institute of Applied Physics (SINAP). The facility became operational in 2009, reaching full energy operation in Dec 2012.

When it opened, it was China's costliest single science facility.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The facility "has played a key role in revealing the inner mechanism of various cancers."
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Construction[
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
]​

It has a circumference of 432 metres, and is designed to operate at 3.5
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the highest energy of any synchrotron other than the Big Three facilities
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in Hyōgo Prefecture, Japan,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in Grenoble, France and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
at Argonne National labs, United States. It will initially have eight beamlines.

The particle accelerator cost 1.2 billion
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
176 million).
It is China's biggest light facility.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
It is located under a building with a futuristic snail-shaped roof.

The synchrotron opened to universities, scientific institutes and companies for approved research in May 2009.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


  • Dec. 2004 - Sept. 2006: Building construction
  • Jun. 2005 - Mar. 2008: Accelerator equipment and components manufacture and assembly
  • Dec. 2005 - Dec. 2008: Beamline construction and assembly
  • Apr. 2007 - Jul. 2007: Linac commissioning
  • Oct. 2007 - Mar. 2008: Booster commissioning
  • Apr. 2008 - Oct. 2008: Storage ring commissioning
  • Nov. 2008 - Mar. 2009: ID Beamline commissioning
  • Apr. 2009: The SSRF operation begins
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

References​


You know what kind of bothers me brother? The timeline, of this EUV inside China.

For certain, absolutely certain, they will build another synchrotron. Simply because that is just for science. So they will build it.

Will they build an adjacent building beside it, cough cough a fab, no one has said anything about that! But, they keep touting the precision work bench, lol.

You know when see the doctor and they tell us go do the chest X-ray? So we stand front of that machine and get zapped. Then we turn to our sides and raise our arm and get zapped again. We move because we are made of silicone. The machine that emits the X-ray light, does not move.

All factories have the same setup. The widget here starts at point A, then it goes on process chain or conveyor belt, gets processed, and would arrive at point B, the finished product.

So the silicone wafer gets prepped in one building, then it goes onto a conveyor, and that precision workbench that does all the moving, it goes outside and then goes into that other building and gets rubber stamped by that synchrotron thingy.

That is a cool setup. The CCP are run by engineers. They probably want to build something like this!

Here we get to the interesting part. The science is not really debatable here, wavelengths, power, chemicals, that should be all known. Should be all tested before they even start building that factory complex. The interesting part is how this works, if they build it.

There is only one stamping machine, but with several stamps. Therefore, they could have 10 different companies as fabs, all using the same building to do the rubber stamp synchrotron thingy. All 10 companies would have their conveyor moving widgets outside then into that synchrotron building.

The authorities on mainland China, should invite TSMC to build a fab beside the synchrotron building. TSMC would not even need to buy a EUV machine. They can lease time to do the stamping, and for sure they will get a good rate. If TSMC declines, then they are on their own.

This is an offer they cannot refuse. :p

This synchrotron building, with the rubber stamps, is a public-private-partnership. The state needs the synchrotron for basic research, but it can lease out some portions for commercial applications. This is gonna cost a lot less than buying several machines from ASML.

You know how the Chinese are, with the Confucian teachings and stuff, they will give TSMC a chance, but they not give ASML a chance, like what for? We see how that goes, if they actually do this.

This is not trying to catch up and build an EUV machine for IC, this synchrotron building with adjacent fabs, is a completely new model to do IC.

This is not China product versus foreign product. This is a Chinese model versus a foreign model.

Would the Chinese model of doing it this way with a synchrotron building as the rubber stamper and the adjacent fab, be more cost effective? Hey! That is what public-private-partnerships are for! Hehe.

Unless, of course, they still decide to pursue some other unknown methods or technology that is patented. Like, no way Jose!?

No one has said anything about this sort of setup, not rumours, and definitely not officially. But that precision workbench exists, and synchrotron exists. Since this is China, officially, they will NOT put 2 and 2 together. End of story.

:oops::D


When they say end of story, they really do mean end of story. Silence!

np-file-74146.jpg



When was the real start date? This is year 2022 already, and the tech war with Huawei been going on since 2018, and before that it was ZTE in 2107? It was that long ago.
 

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