Chinese Culture: Tradition vs Law

SamuraiBlue

Captain
It is those darker aspects that drove the founders of modern democracy, in both France and in America, to separate the state from any form of religion.
Actually this part is a bit off. The original Anglo Saxon Americans were Protestants or Puritans who despised the corrupt hierarchic Catholic church, and wanted to rid of all that only benefit the clergy, thus the name Protest-ants or ones who protest (against the church). The French are still Catholics but the French revolution ended Imperial rule, that is why they call it the French Revolution which completely scrapped royalty all together and the rise of commoners reign.

The difference in China is that there has never been a revolution where the bottom end toppled the top and everyone started participating in politics since (this is my personal opinion but) Chinese commoners always had this desire for a hero to take care of all the complicated state affairs and the citizens can lead their lives without troubling themselves with how to steer a nation.
Which is the reason why China is ruled by one dynasty after another including ROC and PRC.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Actually this part is a bit off. The original Anglo Saxon Americans were Protestants or Puritans who despised the corrupt hierarchic Catholic church, and wanted to rid of all that only benefit the clergy, thus the name Protest-ants or ones who protest (against the church). The French are still Catholics but the French revolution ended Imperial rule, that is why they call it the French Revolution which completely scrapped royalty all together and the rise of commoners reign.

The difference in China is that there has never been a revolution where the bottom end toppled the top and everyone started participating in politics since (this is my personal opinion but) Chinese commoners always had this desire for a hero to take care of all the complicated state affairs and the citizens can lead their lives without troubling themselves with how to steer a nation.
Which is the reason why China is ruled by one dynasty after another including ROC and PRC.

I find your interpretation quite strange.

First, the separation of church and state applies to all forms of religion, not just the Catholic Church.

Second, the French revolution hardly ushered in the "rise of commoners reign", as you put it. The revolution itself resulted in a period of terror, and ultimately paved the way for the rise of the Napoleon empire. It then underwent almost a century of turmoil before finally coalescing into a modern democracy. The Americans had an easier time at first, since they did not have to deal with entrenched powers and interests, but even then they had to go through a bloody civil war.

Third, people who characterize the ROC and PRC as "dynasties" are obviously distorting history for ulterior agendas. Dynasties are defined as a sequence of rulers from the same family. This is a significant characteristic because it means no one else can gain power except by overthrowing the ruling family. Neither the ROC nor the PRC have hereditary succession, except maybe when Jiang Jingguo succeeded his father in Taiwan.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
I find your interpretation quite strange.

First, the separation of church and state applies to all forms of religion, not just the Catholic Church.

Second, the French revolution hardly ushered in the "rise of commoners reign", as you put it. The revolution itself resulted in a period of terror, and ultimately paved the way for the rise of the Napoleon empire. It then underwent almost a century of turmoil before finally coalescing into a modern democracy. The Americans had an easier time at first, since they did not have to deal with entrenched powers and interests, but even then they had to go through a bloody civil war.

Third, people who characterize the ROC and PRC as "dynasties" are obviously distorting history for ulterior agendas. Dynasties are defined as a sequence of rulers from the same family. This is a significant characteristic because it means no one else can gain power except by overthrowing the ruling family. Neither the ROC nor the PRC have hereditary succession, except maybe when Jiang Jingguo succeeded his father in Taiwan.

The period of terror(by a commoner) and rise of Napoleon(another commoner) is basically a backlash but never really resulted anything else beyond that nothing goes straight to democracy over night.
As for ROC after Sun Yat-sen death, Chiang Kai-shek basically decreed himself as lifetime president meaning he created a dynasty for himself and his son.
PRC is a communist dynasty in which no one outside of the Communist party can take control.
By the way
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does not mean ruling by a single family or clan but also includes ruling by a single dominate group in which case PRC by the communist party. As the dictionary defines;

a succession of rulers of the same line of descent or a powerful group or family that maintains its position for a considerable time

So PRC is also a dynasty by their own definition.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
The period of terror(by a commoner) and rise of Napoleon(another commoner) is basically a backlash but never really resulted anything else beyond that nothing goes straight to democracy over night.
As for ROC after Sun Yat-sen death, Chiang Kai-shek basically decreed himself as lifetime president meaning he created a dynasty for himself and his son.
PRC is a communist dynasty in which no one outside of the Communist party can take control.
By the way
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
does not mean ruling by a single family or clan but also includes ruling by a single dominate group in which case PRC by the communist party. As the dictionary defines;



So PRC is also a dynasty by their own definition.

Blue, its only stretches as far is you are willing to cut it. The USA (or any other country) is a dynasty because only american soil born Americans can be president? Americans born in america is a dominate group too.

So what is the difference between a dog and an ape? both have 2 eyes, a tail, fur, 4 legs; you can argue that the DNA is different sequenced or that the paws are articulated differently or that the average attribute is different. But are these differences we can identify between the species that true? A German Shepard will have different anatomy ratios, DNA sequencing, average attributes etc; are they not dog? same with a gorilla and a chimpanzee; are they not an ape?

We also have to remember that you don't have to be a CCP member to hold government office in the PRC; it is not a one party state. Now you can argue that those minor parties are not independent etc. but that is by how you define them. Just like the dog ape example above.

My point is, if you choose to go by definitions, then anything can be in a category of its own or everything could be in the same category. We know that a dog is different to an ape; but defining how they are different is a can of worms. Similarly, the definition of dynasty, the ROC and PRC is not really a dynasty. I would actually agree that Chaing did create a dynasty, but the ROC is not ruled by a Chaing or hand picked successor right now.

Now on the question of Li

I think it is like how chinese legalism is a very different thing from western legalism. Chinese law is much more about intent and western law is much more about interpretation. This means that chinese legal system is very reactive; like if the intent is to not have pollution, you will only have an issue when you experience pollution which is after the fact. Western legal system is very risk adverse and finite, as in it is a playbook of rules to navigate and so you plan along the rules and break the intent of the law and pay a very token fine.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses. its why western people will generally argue that the chinese legal system is very unclear and very similar case can have drastically different verdicts. And why the chinese legal system work ridiculously fast and the western ones can be tortuous slow like the Haiti or Alaskan oil spills take several decades of deliberation with no verdict and even when someone is found guilty, the fine is only a couple million dollars for 30 years of oil spill, hundreads of people killed and many more with birth defects.

Its just different.
 

solarz

Brigadier
PRC is a communist dynasty in which no one outside of the Communist party can take control.
By the way
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
does not mean ruling by a single family or clan but also includes ruling by a single dominate group in which case PRC by the communist party. As the dictionary defines;
So PRC is also a dynasty by their own definition.

Yes, a group that has 85 million members. In comparison, the total population of Canada is about 35 million.

Add to that it's a group anyone can join, if they apply and have the necessary academic or professional credentials. Most university undergrads who wish to pursue a career in civil service join the party.

You might as well argue that the US is ruled by a dynasty of Lawyers.
 

Inst

Captain
@SamuraiBlue: the best way I can explain the CPC in Japanese terms is if you imagine the LDP (corrupt, insular power elite) was literally the Yakuza (Japanese organized crime). Wouldn't that be something? And they're stuck on a huge landmass with a huge population as your neighbor.
 

Inst

Captain
I read the Chrysanthemum and the Sword, and one part of Japanology (and I know Ruth Benedict is outdated and discredited) that interests me is the argument that societies go through a phase where human feelings and human relationships contradict the formal order. In most Western societies, the end-point is a tipping of the scale towards the formal order, i.e, Law. In Japan, the scale used to be tipped towards human feelings, and for that matter, giri, but what was attempted during Meiji was to categorically tip the scale towards the social structure.

IMO, having read Confucius and Mencius' arguments in favor of human feelings (Ren), I think a Ren-based society is more "rational" than its Western counterparts based on an abstract Law. After all, Law derives from abstractions (social contract) that resemble Plato's notion of a Noble Lie. When held close up to critical reasoning and/or nihilism, they catch fire and are reduced to ashes.

However, the other part of a Noble Lie is that despite being false, it creates utilitarian outcomes better than the truth. China, in a way, must be commended for holding up Ren over Fa (the Chinese term for Law) just as a child must be commended for telling the truth over a lie. Nonetheless, the social outcomes (vast degrees of corruption) must be coralled, requiring that more favor be given to Fa than Ren.

The traditional way of doing things, that is, to handle matters in private and to treat the Law as a last resort, is admirable, especially when you consider the overlitigous Americans. Yet there must be a better balance; to order society through a tradition of justice, without falling into the extremes of either Japanese (hypocritical, and thus functional) adherence to traditions, or American reliance on a human and imperfect legal system. China has not achieved this. My hopes rest that she may.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
You might as well argue that the US is ruled by a dynasty of Lawyers.

Okay, I openly laughed at this. Well done haha.

====


Also, is the idea of this thread to actually discuss this topic, which is not only a culturally sensitive one but a politically sensitive one, and a few wrong posts away from flaming and lockdown?
 
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solarz

Brigadier
I read the Chrysanthemum and the Sword, and one part of Japanology (and I know Ruth Benedict is outdated and discredited) that interests me is the argument that societies go through a phase where human feelings and human relationships contradict the formal order. In most Western societies, the end-point is a tipping of the scale towards the formal order, i.e, Law. In Japan, the scale used to be tipped towards human feelings, and for that matter, giri, but what was attempted during Meiji was to categorically tip the scale towards the social structure.

IMO, having read Confucius and Mencius' arguments in favor of human feelings (Ren), I think a Ren-based society is more "rational" than its Western counterparts based on an abstract Law. After all, Law derives from abstractions (social contract) that resemble Plato's notion of a Noble Lie. When held close up to critical reasoning and/or nihilism, they catch fire and are reduced to ashes.

However, the other part of a Noble Lie is that despite being false, it creates utilitarian outcomes better than the truth. China, in a way, must be commended for holding up Ren over Fa (the Chinese term for Law) just as a child must be commended for telling the truth over a lie. Nonetheless, the social outcomes (vast degrees of corruption) must be coralled, requiring that more favor be given to Fa than Ren.

The traditional way of doing things, that is, to handle matters in private and to treat the Law as a last resort, is admirable, especially when you consider the overlitigous Americans. Yet there must be a better balance; to order society through a tradition of justice, without falling into the extremes of either Japanese (hypocritical, and thus functional) adherence to traditions, or American reliance on a human and imperfect legal system. China has not achieved this. My hopes rest that she may.

I believe what you are describing are really differences in the moral framework between Chinese, Japanese, and Western cultures.

First, I think we can all agree that Laws must be based upon social norms, which is in turn shaped by a culture's moral framework.

For example, less than 50 years ago, homosexuality was considered immoral and outlawed in Western culture. Today, that moral view has changed, and thus not only homosexuality no longer illegal, many states are allowing same-sex marriage.

Second, I would posit that differences in moral frameworks are very difficult to understand unless a person frequently changed cultural environments.

As human beings, we are hard-wired to see behavior that does not agree with our moral framework as unethical, and we tend to adopt the moral framework of the society we live in. What we often term as "culture-clash" is really a clash of morals.

Take for example the issue of very young children urinating and defecating in public. Although the issue itself is cultural, people who dislike this kind of behavior make moral judgements on the parents. In their moral framework, it is immoral for anyone, even little kids, to urinate or defecate in public.

Some might argue that there is a utilitarian reason behind this, namely hygiene. However, if we examine this logically, we can see that this argument is entirely nonsensical and hypocritical. The same people who protest loudly at a little kid peeing in a corner wouldn't bat an eye at a dog peeing on a lamp post. Yes, theoretically, dog owners are supposed to pick up after their pets, but many don't, and dog poo is a frequent sight on the sidewalks of Western cities.

This is just one example of differences in moral perception. There are many others I can think of.

On a broader level, the Western legal system is based on a combination of Judeo-Christian values and Western philosophy (Plato, Descartes, Kant, etc.).

The modern Chinese legal system is modeled on the Western legal system, but the cultural and moral values of the Chinese people are based on Confucianism, Legalism, and Taoism. While both Chinese and Western philosophies do share many similiarities (since we are all human beings), it is the differences that cause problems.
 

Inst

Captain
Correct; many Westerners don't realize that their culture is post-Christian or post-Platonic. I'm reading Allan Bloom's "The Closing of the American Mind", and I especially appreciate a remark where Descartes is said to resort to God to destroy his ultimate skepticism. Many Westerners claim that "I think, therefore I am" is self-evident and always true. However, what they don't realize is that "I think" can be an illusory phenomenon (not even experience, since the self may not exist) and that the system of logic ("I think" implies that there is an object called "I", hence "I" exists) is also a postulational system based on assumptions.
 
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