China's Problem ?

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dioditto

Banned Idiot
I am just wondering, why is there such technological difference in level between China and Western countries ?? In a lot of studies it shows that Chinese students from primary school til end of high school have very high standards in math and science than a lot of developed countries (especially compared to USA), and in Math-Olympic china have consistently been in the top 5. And China have been graduating 10 times the Engineers every year comparing to USA. So my question is, why is there such huge technological difference (in scientific paper published) in many critical areas, China is lagging behind by almost 30 years (rocketry, jet engine design, miniturisation).

In just those 4-5 short years in University, it seems that's where all the difference become apparent.

Another possibility maybe is due to cultural revolution, is it due to it that China lost a generation of intellects.
 
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Gollevainen

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
basic history, nothing else. Since 19th century china has been in turmiol and vunerable to western explotation combined whit devastating foreing occupation and finaly when china was about to rise in its feets, they choosed wrong path and tryed to accomplish marxist sosialism and communism by making peasants class as the primary mover of the class strugle...direction that could only lead into catastrhopies like great leap fovard, cultural revolution or Pol Pots massacares in Cambodia....and then you add the useless Tiananmere massacare which made all others to impose sanctions to harm even futher chinas rise to parity whit others....why do you even bother ask??
 
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IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
dioditto said:
I am just wondering, why is there such difference technological level between China and Western countries ?? In a lot of studies it shows that Chinese students from primary school til end of high school have very high standards in math and science than a lot of developed countries (especially compared to USA), and in Math-Olympic china have consistently been in the top 5. And China have been graduating 10 times the Engineers every year comparing to USA. So my question is, why is there such huge technological difference (in scientific paper published) in many critical areas, China is lagging behind by almost 30 years (rocketry, jet engine design, miniturisation).

In just those 4-5 short years in University, it seems that's where all the difference become apparent.

Another possibility maybe is due to cultural revolution, is it due to it that China lost a generation of intellects.
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The simple answer is: lack of investment and infrastructure. Public and private sectors are using their capital on "catching" up activities with the US. As a result, most of the engineers and scientist in China are using their talents in replicating what the US has done years before not pursuing new ideas.

In the US, no such constraints are there. That and a mature endowment system from private individuals, universities, and the government (most govt. R&D are military applications) gives brilliant individuals a medium to put their theories into practice.

Also, the US sort of "steals" intellectuals from around the globe. About half of the student population in post graduate fields are filled with foreign students. These students are some of the best that those country has to offer. Statistically, half of these stay in the US after they graduate due to better access to said infrastructure to pursue their passion.
 
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dioditto

Banned Idiot
IDonT said:
The simple answer is: lack of investment and infrastructure. Public and private sectors are using their capital on "catching" up activities with the US. As a result, most of the engineers and scientist in China are using their talents in replicating what the US has done years before not pursuing new ideas.

In the US, no such constraints are there. That and a mature endowment system from private individuals, universities, and the government (most govt. R&D are military applications) gives brilliant individuals a medium to put their theories into practice.

Also, the US sort of "steals" intellectuals from around the globe. About half of the student population in post graduate fields are filled with foreign students. These students are some of the best that those country has to offer. Statistically, half of these stay in the US after they graduate due to better access to said infrastructure to pursue their passion.
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Why does the chinese feel it has the need to replicate the west? And secondly, since china have 10 times the talent pool (10x more engineers and scientists graduated each year) Why isn't it caught up and some already?? It only take Japan far fewer than 30 years to caught up US and surpass it in some other areas.
 
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IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
dioditto said:
Why does the chinese feel it has the need to replicate the west? And secondly, since china have 10 times the talent pool (10x more engineers and scientists graduated each year) Why isn't it caught up and some already?? It only take Japan far fewer than 30 years to caught up US and surpass it in some other areas.
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Because the western model of market centric capitalism works. Also, the "scientific method" is also a purely western concept that is used to create breakthroughs in the field of science and engineering.

Here are the steps.
  1. Define the question
  2. Gather information and resources
  3. Form hypothesis
  4. Perform experiment and collect data
  5. Analyze data
  6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypotheses
  7. Publish results

Secondly, CHina hasn't caught up because it is huge. Yes it has 10 times the talent pools but it also has 10 times the liability. As I said earlier, most of the resources (both public and private sectors) are used to built infrastructure (roads, dams, electric generation, laboratories) to adequately satisfy 1.3 billion people. Japan had 120 million and South Korea had 50 million.

In comparison, the US has a mature infrastructure and a mature legal systems that stimulates and rewards inventions and scientific breakthroughs. That is one of the reason why most of the Billionaires are in the US.
 
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adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
dioditto said:
Why does the chinese feel it has the need to replicate the west? And secondly, since china have 10 times the talent pool (10x more engineers and scientists graduated each year) Why isn't it caught up and some already?? It only take Japan far fewer than 30 years to caught up US and surpass it in some other areas.
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To answer your questions:

1) The "China problem" is the result of both internal mismanagement and external threat/invasion over the last 150 years. There isn't really a single person or faction that you could lay the entire blame on.

2) Why replicate the west? Why reinvent the wheel? i.e. if you go to Taiwan or Malaysia, you'd find freeway systems that are quite similiar to those found on American west-coast states. If someone else already spent 50+ years perfecting freeway transportation system, why not just use it?

3) Having more graduates doesn't automatically translate to a bigger and better talet pool. There's the issue of job avail, funding, and experience.

The US has a very good higher education system, because American colleges receive more funding than most other countries, and staffed with well educated & experienced personnel.

There are 2 components to development, software and hardware. "Software" is typically defined as human resource, while "hardware' is defined as physical resource. The PRC today has the resources to make some advances in "hardware", but "software" development takes time. You could dump a bucket of cash on "hardware" development and see immediate results, but not "software", because human resource require a lot of time.

Consequently, this is also why many companies hire outside talet and contractors. I mean you could buy all the computers, software, and servers you want with $$, but sending your guys to a week-long training class is just not the same as hiiring an expert who has worked in the field for 10 years.
 
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redazncommieDXP

Just Hatched
Registered Member
I would disagree with you that China chose the wrong road after WWII. The Nationalist government was a puppet of the Americans, and the Americans never would allow a potential strategic rival like China to grow into its rightful place in the world. Furthermore, to say that the Tiananmen Square Massacre was "useless" is to look at the situation only at a very narrow level. The massacre was a necessary action to maintain the Chinese state. It's an oversimplification, but keep in mind that the Soviet Union was allowing peaceful protests in the Balkans when China declared martial law in Beijing. The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore, and China does.

Gollevainen said:
basic history, nothing else. Since 19th century china has been in turmiol and vunerable to western explotation combined whit devastating foreing occupation and finaly when china was about to rise in its feets, they choosed wrong path and tryed to accomplish marxist sosialism and communism by making peasants class as the primary mover of the class strugle...direction that could only lead into catastrhopies like great leap fovard, cultural revolution or Pol Pots massacares in Cambodia....and then you add the useless Tiananmere massacare which made all others to impose sanctions to harm even futher chinas rise to parity whit others....why do you even bother ask??
Click to expand...
 
Gollevainen

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
You need to see the chinese path from the point where the stagnation begun and when the centurys old empire was gradually exploided by more modern and lively empires of western orgins. It didn't just begun after WWII, but long before....
And by wrong path I didnt mean that Nationalist should have win, but that the communist should have read their Das Kapital and Communist manifest bit more carefully than it seems...
Marxist theroy of dialectic materialism and class strugle as main historical motivator aren't BS as some one migth thing. But they are really clearly presented theories about class sosiceties and bougerous state and have predicted all what is happening nowadays, including the crude fact that Russia as industrially undevolped state wasent the rigth ignitor for working class revolution and provisional ideologies that called small elite of the proletariate could conduct theborgerous revolution after the workers revolution was simple bollocs.
Chinese tryed to conduct that same mistake by even more austere conditions by simply forcing elements of indusrtial workers revolution into some sort of peasent uprising...no wonder that it lead into misshaps like cultural revolution and so...and who can rise up and delear current PRC even close to the society Marx orginally wanted?
No workable society needs to kill its own citicens or declear marshall law to 'protect' itself....its dying empires death struggle and by using force the current chinese regime just prolong its missery where as the russians came clewer enough to see that their system had went wrong and gave it change to dissolute whitout cousing more unnnesery iche to its people.
 
S

silverster

New Member
Chiense may have 10 times the talent pools.

but out of those 10... how many have immigrated to the US, europe, or even countries like Australia??

all those chinese who at the tip of the science field, ask how many of them has a Chinese passport?
 
R

redazncommieDXP

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Gollevainen said:
You need to see the chinese path from the point where the stagnation begun and when the centurys old empire was gradually exploided by more modern and lively empires of western orgins. It didn't just begun after WWII, but long before....
And by wrong path I didnt mean that Nationalist should have win, but that the communist should have read their Das Kapital and Communist manifest bit more carefully than it seems...
Marxist theroy of dialectic materialism and class strugle as main historical motivator aren't BS as some one migth thing. But they are really clearly presented theories about class sosiceties and bougerous state and have predicted all what is happening nowadays, including the crude fact that Russia as industrially undevolped state wasent the rigth ignitor for working class revolution and provisional ideologies that called small elite of the proletariate could conduct theborgerous revolution after the workers revolution was simple bollocs.
Chinese tryed to conduct that same mistake by even more austere conditions by simply forcing elements of indusrtial workers revolution into some sort of peasent uprising...no wonder that it lead into misshaps like cultural revolution and so...and who can rise up and delear current PRC even close to the society Marx orginally wanted?
No workable society needs to kill its own citicens or declear marshall law to 'protect' itself....its dying empires death struggle and by using force the current chinese regime just prolong its missery where as the russians came clewer enough to see that their system had went wrong and gave it change to dissolute whitout cousing more unnnesery iche to its people.
Click to expand...

It is the duty of the state to preserve itself, because when the state collapses you lose any chance at greatness or at real power that you had before. During the Tiananmen Square protests, the Party was under tremendous internal pressures and had to control the spread of hostile and dangerous ideologies. Was it terrible that "innocent" people had to die? Yes. But was it necessary? That answer is also a yes. And I think that Deng Xiaoping deserves credit for seeing the necessity in the atrocity and following through with the only possible course.
 
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