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solarz

solarz

Brigadier
ougoah said:
No those labels and preconceptions are exactly what I was against in my post. I pointed out the chasm of real world difference between supposedly similar systems of governance. I'm totally against conflating and simplifying these things but it's the go to method for the dull mind because it's convenient and easy. Government is more complex and nuanced than saying democracy is more about meeting the needs of the people as opposed to voting numbers etc. First off, the needs of some people are often at odds with the needs of others. Democracy to me would be something that resembles bipartisanship, universal suffrage process (whatever the details) to appoint representatives. The power of these individuals are kept in check by the theoretical attributes of the system. But the system can be and IS always gamed. To defeat these flaws, citizens need to constantly play a meta counter game to truly keep things in check.

I'm not saying anything is better or worse. Just defending my post about the US being a democracy where a demagogue has managed to take advantage of the system and so we have a president of the US doing twitter battle with a child and provoking reactions. Humanity on this social level has sunk to new lows.
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That's because you are still tying Democracy to a system, when in reality, Democracy is a goal. As Deng Xiaoping would say, doesn't matter if it's a black cat or a white cat, the cat that catches mice is a good cat. Democracy is not about black cats vs white cats, it's about catching mice!

A nation is very much like a living being. When you go on a training regimen, or on a diet, or on a treatment process for a chronic condition, there are always certain rules the experts would prescribe: eat well, exercise, take your meds, etc. However, as you progress along your training/diet/treatment, you realize that it's the little details that make all the difference. What does "eat well" mean? Some people may respond better to a low-carb diet, others to a low-fat diet, and still others might benefit more from a well-rounded diet. How about exercise? Some people benefit from intensive exercises, while for others intensive exercises might do more harm than good. Most experts would say running is good for your health, but for some people running carries a high risk of injury, so maybe swimming is better.

Just as every person is different, every nation is different as well, so there is no such thing as a universal prescription for democracy. You may advocate for some general principles, such as rule of law and respect for fundamental human rights, but those things have little meaning when it comes to implementation. It's easy to say we need rule of law, but then Western countries just legalize corruption in the form of lobbyism. It's easy to say we need to respect human rights, but then some countries divide their people into citizens and non-citizens, and only grant rights to the former.

I believe that history has shown us no political system is immune to corruption and decline. It's a hubris of our times that we think we are so much more enlightened than our ancestors. All empires rise and fall, it's the cycle of nature. What works well for a country for a specific era can become fatally flawed in a different era. Nobody can always adapt correctly to changing circumstances, and it's folly to be chasing that holy grail of political systems.

Right now, I am just thankful that China has a pragmatic and well-grounded leadership taking the country in the right direction. Who knows, maybe in 50 years, China will be suffering from the same in-fighting, arrogance, and cronyism that is plaguing the US right now.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
solarz said:
That's because you are still tying Democracy to a system, when in reality, Democracy is a goal. As Deng Xiaoping would say, doesn't matter if it's a black cat or a white cat, the cat that catches mice is a good cat. Democracy is not about black cats vs white cats, it's about catching mice!

A nation is very much like a living being. When you go on a training regimen, or on a diet, or on a treatment process for a chronic condition, there are always certain rules the experts would prescribe: eat well, exercise, take your meds, etc. However, as you progress along your training/diet/treatment, you realize that it's the little details that make all the difference. What does "eat well" mean? Some people may respond better to a low-carb diet, others to a low-fat diet, and still others might benefit more from a well-rounded diet. How about exercise? Some people benefit from intensive exercises, while for others intensive exercises might do more harm than good. Most experts would say running is good for your health, but for some people running carries a high risk of injury, so maybe swimming is better.

Just as every person is different, every nation is different as well, so there is no such thing as a universal prescription for democracy. You may advocate for some general principles, such as rule of law and respect for fundamental human rights, but those things have little meaning when it comes to implementation. It's easy to say we need rule of law, but then Western countries just legalize corruption in the form of lobbyism. It's easy to say we need to respect human rights, but then some countries divide their people into citizens and non-citizens, and only grant rights to the former.

I believe that history has shown us no political system is immune to corruption and decline. It's a hubris of our times that we think we are so much more enlightened than our ancestors. All empires rise and fall, it's the cycle of nature. What works well for a country for a specific era can become fatally flawed in a different era. Nobody can always adapt correctly to changing circumstances, and it's folly to be chasing that holy grail of political systems.

Right now, I am just thankful that China has a pragmatic and well-grounded leadership taking the country in the right direction. Who knows, maybe in 50 years, China will be suffering from the same in-fighting, arrogance, and cronyism that is plaguing the US right now.
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I sort of understand your point but fail to see its relevance to how democracy does manifest in tangible ways as much as it is an ideal and the goal. I'm talking about symptoms when I'm pointing out demagogues and cronyism. You're talking about theory. There's no dodging the fact there are slippery pitfalls everywhere and China is no different and never will be. The only point of reference we can really discuss here on this topic then becomes Trump vs Greta. Believe me I understand both you and popeye but I feel like there's almost an effort to dodge and separate Trump from democracy. So let's leave all theory aside. The democratic process in the US created president Trump for better or worse. Trump is currently teasing a child on Twitter. I said ha look a democracy (a great democracy no less) allowed a demagogue to get to such a position of power. Yes it's a cheap crack at the expense of my understanding of democracy. In the grand scheme of things, it's probably absolutely trivial (let's hope so!) and let's leave it at that.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
ougoah said:
I said ha look a democracy (a great democracy no less) allowed a demagogue to get to such a position of power.
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I would say the election of Trump shows that the US is not a democracy, and has not been for a while.

Think about it, how did Trump get elected? He is the physical manifestation of the frustrations of the American people. He was supposed to be the person that "fixed" the system so that it would serve the people again.

Instead, what did the American people get? A devastated agricultural industry, no new manufacturing jobs, and a whole lot of Twitter drama.

How can you call such a political system a "rule of the people"?
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
solarz said:
I would say the election of Trump shows that the US is not a democracy, and has not been for a while.

Think about it, how did Trump get elected? He is the physical manifestation of the frustrations of the American people. He was supposed to be the person that "fixed" the system so that it would serve the people again.

Instead, what did the American people get? A devastated agricultural industry, no new manufacturing jobs, and a whole lot of Twitter drama.

How can you call such a political system a "rule of the people"?
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I guess personal definitions. There are plenty of people who support Trump in all his endeavours, behaviours, and choices. We cannot simply say this isn't democracy when it doesn't suit. I would maintain that it is the uniquely American processes that got him to the position. If we want to separate this American system from democracy as some sacred ideal, then fine but I often feel that authoritarianism must ALWAYS wear every single example of its failures even those that were exaggerated or made up while democracy gets free rides plenty of times. It's similar to how the west always holds PRC accountable for every negative thing that's happened in its history and to those associated with it. But whenever something negative is associated with the west, it's ALWAYS because of this or that and them.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
This is getting a little off topic, but in my view, the true test of democracy is not some tick box exercise, but rather one that goes to the very heart and soul of what democracy is supposed to achieve - responsible and responsive government that is there to serve the best interests of its people, and is ultimately answerable to those people.

Also, democracy is not some magical spell, whereby merely invoking its holy name would grant you all your wishes. It is a delicate machine that relies on the correct functioning of many supporting elements to remain health and effective.

Just as government has a responsibility to the people, the people also have a responsibility to cast their vote in a rational, informed and responsible manner. Otherwise you have mob rule and/or the farce of fictional characters, inanimate objects and animals being elected to high office.

In order for the people to have an informed opinion as the basis of their vote, you need a responsible and impartial media to deliver news instead of propaganda, and to calm politicians out when they tell fairytales.

If you have politicians telling bare faced lies, and the media owned by vested interest actively engaged in partisan campaigning and propaganda, who not only does not call out such blatant lies but instead supports and feeds them, democracy fails and is perverted into a tool of oppression. Because nothing shuts up opposing views as effectively as ‘you’ve got to respect democracy’ or ‘the people have spoken!’ Etc.

Trump, and Boris’ recent election successes are textbook examples of the perversion of democracy because of the deliberate and relentless blatant lies that have been a central and enduring primary strategy of both campaigns.

An election won through deliberate and systematic lying is the same as stuffing ballet boxes.

It is telling just how brainwashed western populations have become that they meekly accept the results of such outrageously corrupted elections. Because in no other regular transaction would anyone think of honouring a deal reached with another party when the other party has deliberately and fundamentally lied to misrepresent exactly what it is that you are agreeing to.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
ougoah said:
I guess personal definitions. There are plenty of people who support Trump in all his endeavours, behaviours, and choices. We cannot simply say this isn't democracy when it doesn't suit. I would maintain that it is the uniquely American processes that got him to the position. If we want to separate this American system from democracy as some sacred ideal, then fine but I often feel that authoritarianism must ALWAYS wear every single example of its failures even those that were exaggerated or made up while democracy gets free rides plenty of times. It's similar to how the west always holds PRC accountable for every negative thing that's happened in its history and to those associated with it. But whenever something negative is associated with the west, it's ALWAYS because of this or that and them.
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Just because some people feel their will is being carried out does not make it a democracy. A house slave that is satisfied with his life is still a slave.

There are objective measures to how well a government responds to the needs of the population: life expectancy, literacy, social mobility, and yes, GDP. Those are certainly not all of the measures, but we can use them as an example. Take the US for example, while GDP has risen, life expectancy has been declining:

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And the US middle class has been shrinking since the 1980's:

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This certainly does not paint a rosy picture of how democratic the US has been over the last couple of decades. The drop in life expectancy is especially relevant here: there is a wave of opioid-related deaths in North America, and the US is particularly hard-hit. Drug addicts certainly want more drugs to fuel their addiction. Would it then be "democratic" to keep supplying them with those drugs? Would it be "authoritarian" to take drastic measures to curb drug use, as Duterte did in the Phillipines?
 
SteelBird

SteelBird

Colonel
This seems to be big news. I'm not sure if we are allowed to discuss this event.
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A

antiterror13

Brigadier
ougoah said:
I guess personal definitions. There are plenty of people who support Trump in all his endeavours, behaviours, and choices. We cannot simply say this isn't democracy when it doesn't suit. I would maintain that it is the uniquely American processes that got him to the position. If we want to separate this American system from democracy as some sacred ideal, then fine but I often feel that authoritarianism must ALWAYS wear every single example of its failures even those that were exaggerated or made up while democracy gets free rides plenty of times. It's similar to how the west always holds PRC accountable for every negative thing that's happened in its history and to those associated with it. But whenever something negative is associated with the west, it's ALWAYS because of this or that and them.
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Remember that Hitler was elected democratically ;)
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
SteelBird said:
This seems to be big news. I'm not sure if we are allowed to discuss this event.
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"Impeached" means he is being formally accused of wrongdoing. He has not, however, been found guilty, and this has no effect whatsoever on him holding office.

The next step is the Senate who will decide if Trump is guilty or not, and considering that it's a Republican majority Senate, and any guilty decision needs a 2/3 majority vote to pass, you can do the math yourself.

Really, none of this is the least bit newsworthy. MSM is simply trying to manufacture a mountain out of a molehill.
 
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