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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
An astute article on the potential armed conflict between China and the U.S. written by a retired Colonel in the U.S. Army an iconoclast in the U.S. military and wrote the controversial book on the U.S. military titled "Breaking the Phalanx."

Put more succinctly, China can absorb the damage. In fact, the most likely outcome is a long series of offensive strikes with diminishing returns over time. The logistical foundation in the Pacific to sustain the required strikes on China is weak to nonexistent. Moreover, China is a nuclear power. An American resort to nuclear weapons would be
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. Nuclear weapons are useful to deter nuclear attacks on U.S. territory, but they are otherwise devoid of military utility. A nuclear exchange with China would have grim consequences for humanity and the climate.

All of these points notwithstanding, the potential for war with China will persist. Why?

Between 1960 and 1968, two American presidents, John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson—men who lived through World War II and experienced the exhilaration of victory in the Pacific—decided that the enormous resources and striking power of the U.S. Armed Forces made failure in Vietnam impossible. It is not unreasonable to assume that similar attitudes prevail in the White House and the current Pentagon.

President Dwight D. Eisenhower,
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the serious human and material losses in the war with Germany, saw warfare through a different lens. He understood the American electorate’s acute intolerance for high casualties and he knew from personal experience the limits of America’s resources.

The personal experience of Kennedy and Johnson during WWII was irrelevant. When the two men were compelled to think on a strategic level during the Vietnam War, they were unable to distinguish the strategically vital from the merely desirable U.S. national interests.

Eisenhower understood the distinction. Were Eisenhower alive today, he would likely ask, “Why should the United States commit to war with China over Taiwan? Would the Chinese attack the United States over Cuba?” Eisenhower would also be right.


Douglas Macgregor, colonel (ret.) U.S. Army and the former senior advisor to the Secretary of Defense, is a Ph.D., the author of five books, and a senior fellow at The American Conservative.

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Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
An astute article on the potential armed conflict between China and the U.S. written by a retired Colonel in the U.S. Army an iconoclast in the U.S. military and wrote the controversial book on the U.S. military titled "Breaking the Phalanx."

Put more succinctly, China can absorb the damage. In fact, the most likely outcome is a long series of offensive strikes with diminishing returns over time. The logistical foundation in the Pacific to sustain the required strikes on China is weak to nonexistent. Moreover, China is a nuclear power. An American resort to nuclear weapons would be
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Nuclear weapons are useful to deter nuclear attacks on U.S. territory, but they are otherwise devoid of military utility. A nuclear exchange with China would have grim consequences for humanity and the climate.

All of these points notwithstanding, the potential for war with China will persist. Why?

Between 1960 and 1968, two American presidents, John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson—men who lived through World War II and experienced the exhilaration of victory in the Pacific—decided that the enormous resources and striking power of the U.S. Armed Forces made failure in Vietnam impossible. It is not unreasonable to assume that similar attitudes prevail in the White House and the current Pentagon.

President Dwight D. Eisenhower,
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the serious human and material losses in the war with Germany, saw warfare through a different lens. He understood the American electorate’s acute intolerance for high casualties and he knew from personal experience the limits of America’s resources.

The personal experience of Kennedy and Johnson during WWII was irrelevant. When the two men were compelled to think on a strategic level during the Vietnam War, they were unable to distinguish the strategically vital from the merely desirable U.S. national interests.

Eisenhower understood the distinction. Were Eisenhower alive today, he would likely ask, “Why should the United States commit to war with China over Taiwan? Would the Chinese attack the United States over Cuba?” Eisenhower would also be right.


Douglas Macgregor, colonel (ret.) U.S. Army and the former senior advisor to the Secretary of Defense, is a Ph.D., the author of five books, and a senior fellow at The American Conservative.

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Wow, what sort of readership does that site have? How come a lot of the comments are so... reasonable?
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Wow, what sort of readership does that site have? How come a lot of the comments are so... reasonable?
@ChongqingHotPot92 you ought to take the time to absorb and read a military insight that comes from one of the most highly celebrated soldier (Battle of East Hastings) like Col.Douglas McGregor. He's the man who got passed over the promotional ladder in the military for his military thesis he wrote on the book "Breaking the Phalanx" of which am told or have read that the PLA has actually read and incorporated some of his pertinent recommendations when it comes to land warfare.

You're optimistic appraisals not only of the U.S. military and it's success in the potential Taiwan conflict which is understandable given American technological experience and advances but your quixotic assumptions on R.O.C. escalatory response and or dominance over China is rather odd. And most interestingly coming from an individual that supposedly and purportedly an ex PLA soldier.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Among the most pressing concerns are poor preparation and low morale among the roughly 80,000 Taiwanese who are conscripted each year and the nearly 2.2 million reservists.
Xiao Cheng-zhi, a 26-year-old from central Taiwan, said his four months of basic training that ended last year mainly involved sweeping leaves, moving spare tires and pulling weeds. Aside from some marksmanship training, he said, his classes were meaningless.

Mr. Xiao dismissed his cohorts as strawberry soldiers, a term used in Taiwan to describe young people raised by overprotective parents who bruise easily. While he said he is willing to serve, he doubted the island would stand much chance against China’s People’s Liberation Army.....

Article was written on Wall Street Journal. Dated October 25, 2021.


Please the rest of the article on the link below:



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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Have to disagree. China doesn’t care about perception because they know it’s all meaningless BS fluff.

It makes its choices based on balance of real costs and benefits.

What benefit would scoring some meaningless debate points against some nobody US journo achieve? You will have to be the biggest optimist alive to think any such points scored would even register in any meaningful way with the Anglos. You think there is any scenario where the China could debate the US into backing down on anything of actual value?

If China came out and unequivocally confirmed its developing hypersonic nuclear missiles, all that will achieve is guarantee massive US funding for their own hypersonics.

As it is, not many would believe China’s narrative that it’s just a space plane test, but it costs China nothing while creating at least some doubt that opponents of more money for US hypersonic weapons can use against more funding demands. Even if they cannot stop the funding, at least there is a chance they can reduce and/or delay it.

This is a full spectrum long term contest, you don’t win that by gifting your opponents free points on anything.
If someone charges something against Americans they don't believe is true, they argue against it. Which means if they charge you with something and you don't argue against it, it's because they believe it has to be true or else you would argue against it. I'm not for meaningless debate because I see it happen in this forum and no is ever convinced by the other side and all you see is pages upon pages of it. What happened in Alaska with the Chinese and Blinken is what I want to see happen. Blinken made his sanctimonious statement against China and then he called for the press to leave because that's what usually happens. But then the Chinese side called the press back to point out American hypocrisy something he didn't expect. Anthony Blinken had to go out of his way and invite the UN head on human rights and call for him to investigate the US to make it look like the US was open to scrutiny over human rights violations in the US to not look like a hypocrite. That would've never have happened if China did not speak out of turn contrary to what the US was expecting in Alaska. If China didn't do that, the US would've continued being arrogant at such meetings and if you haven't noticed, Blinken has only taken video conference meetings with Chinese officials since then leaving personal meetings with his underlings to have. Why? Because he's afraid he'll be scrutinized for hypocrisy again? And the Chinese should've done that with questions from Western journalists over China's hypersonic test and that would've ended such stupidity from the West. Now they spin it China is plotting war by developing this. Is the US plotting war since they have a hypersonic program? And they would look stupid in front of the world asking such questions and shut up because they can't defend the US having one or admit to the world only the West can be trusted with such devices because they're white supremacists. Right now the US narrative that China is scheming for a war still stands.
 
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Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
This will only be solved when China can "show" to the world that it can be bloodthirsty as well. Thats how barbaric these people are

If they dont see China destroying another country, then will never respect it.

I disagree, @voyager1. You are expressing the American attitude. Destroying or subverting other countries is the attitude of the CIA, your favorite organization.

"Oderint dum metuant" -- "let them hate so long as they fear" -- said the insane Roman emperor Caligula. China does not need this Mafia-style of "respect". China benefits by making friends, and by being large enough and powerful enough to stop incursions by anyone.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
I disagree, @voyager1
There you go again with your baseless accusations. Very strange that you keep saying I am another forum member.
Next time I will just report you for harassment so you can cool off from making lies


You are expressing the American attitude. Destroying or subverting other countries is the attitude of the CIA
Obviously I was talking from an American/western perspective. Reread the first post with your superior reading comprehension to understand what I was actually saying and not what you think I am saying
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
There you go again with your baseless accusations. Very strange that you keep saying I am another forum member.
You are like @voyager1 in that your "advice" for China is consistently poisonous. I don't care how sinophilic you pretend to be; your major recommendations for China nearly always hurt the country.


Next time I will just report you for harassment so you can cool off from making lies
Go right ahead and report me. If I get banned, that will only save me a lot of time each day. I have taken years-long vacations from this site before, and I can do it again.


Obviously I was talking from an American/western perspective. Reread the first post with your superior reading comprehension to understand what I was actually saying and not what you think I am saying
Of course your Mafia-style recommendation is from an American perspective. I said as much. I also said that China doesn't need to follow your "advice" and destroy another country militarily; the Middle Kingdom only needs to make some friends and be strong enough to punish an invader.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Wow, what sort of readership does that site have?

The less retarded part of American conservatives.

How come a lot of the comments are so... reasonable?


To understand it, here's a quick explanation:

The "west" is split into two - Europe and America - and both are in terms of political ideology a mirror opposite of each other. That is the result of 19th century political evolution.

"Conservative" ideologies traditionally always preserve existing power hierarchies and structures of wealth concentration. "Progressive" ideologies traditionally always strive to flatten those hierarchies and fragment the wealth structure. In Europe in terms of materialistic ideology you have conservative landed elites later augmented by conservative merchant class and progressive peasantry and progressive small merchants.

Initially the same was done in America. The "progressives" were concentrated in the north where the fledgling industry, banking and small farm owners supported independence from the British on those grounds. The "conservatives" were overwhelmingly from the south where slave-owning landed gentry with large properties wanted to preserve their capital including the slaves.

The southern elites were in charge of the federal government until the antebellum (the period immediately before the American Secession War).

A necessary digression: the secession was not caused by "slavery" but by the inevitable shift in power base from the south to the north and the resulting shift from general policy from one favorable to southern landowners to one favorable to northern industrialists and bankers. The threats to slavery came primarily not on ethical grounds but as a tool of removing political power granted by the "three fifths clause" of the US constitution which for the purpose of assigning seats in the House of Representatives and the Electoral College counted slave population at 3/5 of free population. This ensured that southern elites would have greater representation that they otherwise would have. Abolition of slavery aimed at eliminating this asymmetry which then would lead to establishing of tariffs that would redirect capital from the richer south to industrializing north. End of digression.

As you can see the political arrangement in pre-war America was of fundamental importance to protection of southern elite's interest. They supported the war for independence to protect their wealth and expand their power and they established a government for the express purpose of protecting their wealth and their new power. But to do so they had to convince the majority and so they framed their interest as "rights of the free land-owning American".

This led to a revolution of sorts which can be compared to the edicts of Roman dictators who gathered support from the veterans by granting them land in exchange for service in the legions. Something that was of crucial importance considering the concentration of wealth in Rome and the failed land reforms (see: Gracchi brothers).

What the southern elites did was use a progressive idea of linking political rights to land ownership regarding of status to protect their own power and status i.e. a conservative agenda.

This led to the establishment of an ideological base in the working class that would be the inverse of that in Europe. The working class in America which could acquire land easily due to abundance and policies of settlement (see: Homestead Act) became a land-owning class in terms of legal rights and that created a culture that persists to this very day.

This is why the politics of America are so strange because what you have is a strong peasantry that aligns with the interests of the landed elites because they consider themselves to be part of the class due to how the traditions of political thought in America were shaped.

And that leads to something very unique in the west: an anti-war / isolationist or war-reluctant / non-interventionist conservative position. These people are technically left-leaning in terms of foreign policy but are right-leaning in terms of their political preference.

They are called "paleoconservatives" or "Old Right" as opposed to "neoconservatives" who are pro-war and pro-intervention and pro-imperialism but in all other areas superficially hold with the general right-wing agenda. In fact the neoconservatives tend to be more culturally progressive than the general right because they are in reality refugees from the Democratic Party after it began to shift toward the left in the aftermath of New Deal era - and as a result it began to be less inclined toward war.

The "neoconservative" right are the retarded conservatives. The "paleoconservative" right are the less-retarded conservatives. Both are somewhat retarded due to their positions on many other issues but the fundamental difference between the neoconservatives and paleoconservatives is that the paleos are overwhelmingly rural working-class while neocons are rebranded city elites who were frustrated in their imperial ambitions by the leftward shift of the urban working-class.
 
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