Anti-Carrier Trump Card

Chairman Hu

Banned Idiot
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According to the Chinese military publication Junshi Wenzhai, China already has an "Assassin’s Mace" or “Trump Card†doctrine to counter US air superiority in the Western Pacific. One article specifically identifies five major "assassin’s maces," including fighter bombers, submarines, anti-ship missiles, torpedoes, and mines to destroy aircraft carriers. China is acquiring these weapons from Russia or developing them itself. The last paragraph of the article claims that China can coordinate all these five weapons to attack an aircraft carrier simultaneously from several directions and leave it "in flames."

Anyone have any comments or thinks they got a better combo?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
It's always interesting to read these type of articles. A lot of conjecture and speculation.

It appears that the PRC would rely on a surprise attack and would only attack if they felt victory was certain. I feel that it would be very difficult to surprise attack the USN. For many years now the CIC(Combat Information Center) on USN ships remain in a "war footing" constanly. Even when in port in the US.(except during a re-fit)

Captain Shen Zhongchang from the Chinese Navy Research Institute envisions a weaker military defeating a superior one by attacking its spaced-based communications and surveillance systems. He must then surely realize the redundancy of the US spaced based comm-intelligence system. An attack of this nature would require attacking the mainland of the US. Is the PRC willing to do this?

What sort of weapons would the PRC use to "leave a carrier in flames"? It says here fighter bombers, submarines, anti-ship missiles, torpedoes, and mines. All of this is assuming the USN is not ready for a surprise attack.
Does anyone think this senerio is possible? If so how? Personally I don't think the PRC could accomplish this at this moment in time.
 

Su-27 Pilot

Junior Member
bd popeye said:
It's always interesting to read these type of articles. A lot of conjecture and speculation.

It appears that the PRC would rely on a surprise attack and would only attack if they felt victory was certain. I feel that it would be very difficult to surprise attack the USN. For many years now the CIC(Combat Information Center) on USN ships remain in a "war footing" constanly. Even when in port in the US.(except during a re-fit)

Captain Shen Zhongchang from the Chinese Navy Research Institute envisions a weaker military defeating a superior one by attacking its spaced-based communications and surveillance systems. He must then surely realize the redundancy of the US spaced based comm-intelligence system. An attack of this nature would require attacking the mainland of the US. Is the PRC willing to do this?

What sort of weapons would the PRC use to "leave a carrier in flames"? It says here fighter bombers, submarines, anti-ship missiles, torpedoes, and mines. All of this is assuming the USN is not ready for a surprise attack.
Does anyone think this senerio is possible? If so how? Personally I don't think the PRC could accomplish this at this moment in time.
Okay so if US CVBGs are going to help taiwan. How many CVBGs are they going to send ?? Dont forget China has many older fighters and bombers in its navy. The sea shore based Anti-ship missiles and warship based missiles are just too many for a carrier to evade. PLus the PLAN submarines will keep the escrots busy while the naval air force can strike the ships and sea shore's long range SAMs can take down any planes from the carrier.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Okay so if US CVBGs are going to help taiwan. How many CVBGs are they going to send ?? Dont forget China has many older fighters and bombers in its navy. The sea shore based Anti-ship missiles and warship based missiles are just too many for a carrier to evade. PLus the PLAN submarines will keep the escrots busy while the naval air force can strike the ships and sea shore's long range SAMs can take down any planes from the carrier.

Humm? The US would probaly send 3 CSG. With additional LA class subs and Arliegh Burke DDG's. The Aegis system on the DDG's can track hundreds and hundreds of targets.Simotaneously. And kill them . The ECM from EA-6B's & the USN fleet would shut down most of the PLA electronics. The AEW provided by the CV's E-2C's would extend the radar and intelligence gathering ablities of the US fleet for hundreds of miles. Kind of hard to fire a missile or navigate a plane when your electronics are going haywire with CHAFF and ECM. Dont forget the CHAFF despensed by the US Fleet and planes. The PRC has subs? The USN has great ASW. The PLAN would have to contend with shipboard ASW plus numerous SH-60R Seahawks helos. Plus the PLA strike force would be facing at least 6 LA class subs.

The greatest fear of the US fleet would be the Song class sub. Desiel boats are hard to track for now. But the USN is working on that.

By the way are you really an Su-27 pilot? Oh yea I was really a USN sailor for 20 years.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
China theoretically can leave a carrier in flames. But some prerequisites need to be met first. I am not sure how they're realistic to expect in a full blown us-china war. anyway, prerequisites, as i see them, are these:

cbg must be sufficiently close to china/taiwan so its carrier air wing can attack land targets and provide air cover. Otherwise, what's the point of having a cbg, except to launch cruise missiles? This prerequisite is probably most realistic one.

Secondly, it must be a lone cbg. If there are two or even more cbgs operating close enough together that they can offer each other protection, situation becomes way harder. Same goes for the vicinity of okinawa USAAF base with f15s to the said carrier. Though, the difference really is just in number of weapons china would have to posess/use, number of units it can coordinate, and of course number of lives it's ready to lose.

thirdly, china must be able, and this is most problematic and probably most unrealistic of three, to mount the attack without sufficient warning for the us to get help outside combat theatre and even, if they see a serious threat coming, turn back and try to get out of range. At sustained 30 knots, it could get even out of chinese aircraft range if the warning was early enough, i'm talking hours here.

Of course, zero level prerequisite for all this is location of the cbg. With satellites and enough forces (sea and air) commited to it, knowing it's somewhere in range of china, it's doable, albeit with probable high casulties in recon aircraft, etc.

So how would such an attack go? Main issue i see is number of extended rabge standard sm2 missiles in the cbg. would, for example, all 96 vls canisters of an flightII Burke class be armed with standard missiles, and how many of them would be extended range? Now how many burkes and tico would be in a war situation cbg? 3 cruisers and 4 destroyers seem possible.

So, assuming the cbg doesnt have time to flee out of range, an attack with huge number of aircraft would be one way to do the mission. First the forward e2 would need to be taken care of. That's many chinese fighters fighting through its fighter cover. Then the interceptors scrambled from the carrier would need to be neutralized, that's even more fighters. and i'm talking about large numbers here. assuming like 2 chinese craft for each superhornet (if chinese can do it on one for one basis, good for them, im not saying thats not possible) so that losing some 80-90 j11 planes. alternatively, you could send crap planes to get hit first but that'd mean like 300 kills for the hornets before they deplete their AAMs. but hey, if PLAAF can persuade their J6 pilots to go on such a suicidal mission, it's certainly a valid tactic but wasteful, as those crap planes are much better to be play cannon fodder a little later.

If there's any forward patrolling burke, that's taken care of too, with sub launched, awacs data navigated antiship missiles, to stay out of range of standard missiles. I am, though, prone to thinking that there'd be no forward burke, seems to be too costly a tactic.

So anyway, china needs to launch missiles now. how? thats where cannon fodder comes in. you make the cbg spend its extended range sm2 on a mix of obsolete j5, j6, drone aircraft, etc. i'd say its even possible, once the final route it set, to eject from the planes and just send em on autipilot to be brought down by sm2. of course we're talking here about huge amounts of aircraft to be sacrificed, hundreds of planes.

alternatively, the already mentioned sub launched antiship missiles guided from awacs that are outside the sm2 range could help but problem there is there's just not enough subs that can launch those in chinas inventory, even if there is enough missiles. maybe if there's 300 km range air lanuched missiles to aid them, maybe such an attack would be possible.

but to get back to the 'extended range sm2 depleted' scenario. carrier has no aircraft left to send, chinas planes get in range and launch a sufficient number of missiles. the end. Only left question there is what is a sufficient number. no one can tell that for sure. perhaps it could be as little as 50 or as high as 400. ive done some calculations, based on speed of missiles, range of usn defenses, etc, a 200 missile attack seems to be enough to take care of the majority of cbg.

But lets get back to real world. It'd take vast amounts of weapons, huge number of planes of which most would never return home. plus the ability to coordinate such a huge attack. Basically, it'd be something hard to repeat. maybe one more, tops, before even china runs out of resources to do it. And what then, even if it destroyes 2 USN cbgs within weeks US will send more.

*warning, crazy 'what if' scenario following* :D

IF china is to use the cannon fodder, suicide attack, saturation of enemy defences tactic, i'd suggest custom made planes. they need to be pilot driven in order to keep the price down and perhaps more importantly, to avoid jamming/decoys etc. but instead of asking of already trained PLAAF pilots to sacrifice themselves you make a call for ppl ready to give their life for a greater cause. with such huge population pool of poor ppl in rural provinces, it'd be easy for china to train such suicide pilots perhaps even in thousands.

next step would be designing and builidng a cheap plane in vast numbers, again, little under a thousand needed for one cbg attack, even if ALL the missiles USN can use in a few hour period hit their target. small prop planes are commercially sold in us for 18 000. chinese could manufacter such a plane for half the price, given the massive numbers produced. but since it'd have to be fast enough, simple enough, 1000 km one way range plane lets double the figure and multipy by 10. 360 000 per plane. that's 360 million dollars. enough money left to pay the families of the deceased for years.
Oh yeah, once the awacs planes have given them last known coordinates some 300 km away, a small number of the 1000 armada would have their own sensors, flir or such. it'd make them more expensive but only a small number is needed scattered among the 1000 strong force. that'd be enough navigation to find the exact location of the carrier force in those last 300 km (given the speed of planes) and the rest could just go where the planes with sensors tell them.

okay, granted, such an attack (im envisioning ramming the planes) would most probably not sink the carrier, but it'd damage it sufficiently it'd take a year before it can be put back in action. also, chinese would have to have enough of a grasp on their own airspace so those planes dont get attacked and destroyed before they're in air and enroute to the carrier. you can keep em outside even, dispersed enough. if US wants to waste a half a million $ missile for each such plane, let them.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Attempting to mission kill a Carrier Strike Group will deplete most of PLAN and PLAAF's combat capability that it will not have enough to carry out its original mission, the invasion of Taiwan.

Then there are 11 other CSG to deal with.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
bd popeye said:
Humm? The US would probaly send 3 CSG. With additional LA class subs and Arliegh Burke DDG's. The Aegis system on the DDG's can track hundreds and hundreds of targets.Simotaneously. And kill them . The ECM from EA-6B's & the USN fleet would shut down most of the PLA electronics. The AEW provided by the CV's E-2C's would extend the radar and intelligence gathering ablities of the US fleet for hundreds of miles. Kind of hard to fire a missile or navigate a plane when your electronics are going haywire with CHAFF and ECM. Dont forget the CHAFF despensed by the US Fleet and planes. The PRC has subs? The USN has great ASW. The PLAN would have to contend with shipboard ASW plus numerous SH-60R Seahawks helos. Plus the PLA strike force would be facing at least 6 LA class subs.

The greatest fear of the US fleet would be the Song class sub. Desiel boats are hard to track for now. But the USN is working on that.

By the way are you really an Su-27 pilot? Oh yea I was really a USN sailor for 20 years.

Problem with SSK's is their lack of endurance. It simply can't keep up with a fast moving CSG. The moment it moves faster than 5 knots, it will be found and a P-3, SSN, or S-3 viking will take care of it.

That article stress the use of a "mace" or a "dagger", the Aegis System (named after the sheild of Zues) will the US sheild against them.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Su-27 Pilot said:
Okay so if US CVBGs are going to help taiwan. How many CVBGs are they going to send ?? Dont forget China has many older fighters and bombers in its navy. The sea shore based Anti-ship missiles and warship based missiles are just too many for a carrier to evade. PLus the PLAN submarines will keep the escrots busy while the naval air force can strike the ships and sea shore's long range SAMs can take down any planes from the carrier.


You are assuming that those anti-ship missiles have target coordinates.

Those missile SAM batteries directly adjacent to Taiwan will be one of the first tomahawk target from an Ohio SSGN.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Otstanding response Totoro. outstanding! ;) .

Bottom line is .."Is the PRC willing to sacrafice so many assets just to sink one CV and damage and or sink it's escorts?" Like you said ..

""
And what then, even if it destroyes 2 USN cbgs within weeks US will send more.
So true! Basically the PRC would have to catch the US asleep(Like the IJN did at Pearl Harbor) to have an sucessfull attack.

Don't forget..the PRC would have to contend with the USAF also. Most likely based in Guam. The USAF is currently rotating F-15 and B-1 wings to Guam.

okay, granted, such an attack (im envisioning ramming the planes) would most probably not sink the carrier, but it'd damage it sufficiently it'd take a year before it can be put back in action

Correct. It would be very difficult to sink a CV with conventional weapons. In May of this year the USN sank the ex-USS America. It took almost three weeks to sink it. It was finally sunk by some pre-positioned internal charges. Granted it was a controlled sinking. It is believe some Moskit missles with conventional warheads were fired at her along with other weapons.

There have been three devestating fires onboard USN CV's.USS Oriskany CVA-34 in 1966. USS Forrestal CVA-59 in July 1967. And USS Enterprise CVAN-65 in January 1969. On CV-59 & 65 numerous bombs,rockets and missles exploded on the flight deck. Several hundred personal were killed. But the ships survived. The Enterprise was repaired in 6 weeks. The Forrestal required some major work. Oriskany returned to the US for major work.

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