An innovation idea for Army.


Culibin777

Just Hatched
Registered Member
The Chinese authorities are known to actively adopt technological innovations from around the world to develop its economy.
This trend is in the Chinese military industrial complex.
It would be interesting to talk about innovations that could potentially be a demand in the Chinese army.

Anti-tank self-propelled gun, to fight with tanks and other armored vehicles in open terrain. Perhaps demand, especially in northern China, Mongolia, Afghanistan, and other northern border countries, as it allows the tanks to shoot from a distance while remaining inaccessible to the tank guns. Sama gun easier to manufacture and cheaper than tanks, so it can be an effective means of defense against enemy armor.
The gun should have a sight distance shots, 5, 7 kilometers. This range allows the gun to shoot at the tanks remained out of reach for the return fire tanks, or on the boundary of effective fire, at which more powerful self-propelled guns will have the advantage.
For self-propelled guns would be to use the classic traditional gun, with traditional shells. But a large range of fire and the need for increased accuracy leads to thoughts about possible solutions of novation.
Power gun and the projectile velocity can be increased through the use of emerging technologies. Most likely, I think hydrogen gun, or gun powder gases heated by electric current. Probably the same way or use an electromagnetic or hybrid powder - an electromagnetic gun, but in the development of electromagnetic guns so far no significant results, moreover, they are obviously more expensive.
Increase the power gun and the projectile velocity can be due to increase in temperature of powder gases or reduce their molecular weight.
Raise the temperature can be further electrically heated propellant gases Kanel barrel. For this purpose appropriate to use a special powder with reduced molecular weight of the powder gases. For example a mixture of thermoplastic ballistic with oil and ammonium nitrate 70, 80%, such powder combustion provides relatively cold, but light gases, besides it is cheaper. Electric heating, can raise the temperature of gases, and increase their volume and velocity of propagation, up to 3.3 3.7 kilometers per second. This gives the projectile velocity of about 2.5 kilometers per second, for both emerging electromagnetic guns.
As a source of energy can be used unipolar generator. Turbine rotor spins up to high speed, the current from the rotor is removed by electromagnetic coils.
If you want a gun with electric heating, can shoot projectiles at a traditional powder, or shells of composite powder without heating, but at the same speed projectiles will not be high.
In addition to the advantages in power, the guns are electrically low cost shots. Gunpowder dilute ammonium nitrate is several times cheaper.
Hydrogen gun distinguished by a special powder and gunpowder hydrogen combustion provides hot hydrogen, but forms a solid slag, which remains in the barrel after firing.
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Hydrogen gun, theoretically increases the velocity of the projectile up to space, but little more than a few kilometers per second makes no sense. Air resistance would pay too high a speed.
Hydrogen gun can not be used on tanks because of the design features, but it is suitable for self-propelled guns.
Guns of increased power and speed of the projectile can pierce tanks from a distance. But for a more effective fire on the large distances it makes sense to equip the missiles boosters and guidance system.
Engines best air direct-flow, and speed for them and a suitable fuel they consume in moderation.
The Americans are developing a shell for the tank gun with straight through the engine to ethylene. But this engine has its drawbacks, the Americans have a complicated and sensitive version of the engine.
Hybrid solid rocket motor - air-flow would be much more convenient. Solid fuel has a higher density and caloric content, the engines themselves are much simpler. Especially if you use external expansion nozzle. In the hybrid engine, the gases generated by solid fuel may leak through the perforated rim on the projectile, which makes the fuel supply system and air-fuel mixture is extremely simple.
Engines, with solid-gas generators and nozzle external expansion may be structurally very simple, and therefore cheaper and more reliable.
The shells have a range of sighting shots to 7, and eventually to 10, 12 miles, it makes sense to make a manageable, due to the fact that its own ballistics gun at such distances is not guaranteed hit.
Control system shells should be simple and robust. Suits with a laser-guided to coordinate field, like aviation, anti-tank missile (ATGM attack), the cannon shells no dead zones, this is another plus in favor of remote control.
Guided missiles virtually guarantee a hit every shot. They are resistant to interference such as curtains or aerosol screens, knocking target missiles.
The benefits of guided missiles before the missiles can add a high speed throughout the trajectory. Projectiles with kinetic striking elements have a greater destructive force than the shaped-charge warhead anti-tank missiles. Furthermore, from the cumulative jets can protect a combined armor, and from a hypersonic verbs effective protection there.
The main task of self-propelled anti-tank guns, to stop the tanks on the approach to the line of defense.
But it can also be used for firing at the tank columns on the march from the ambush. What can contribute to the hilly terrain, such as in Sidzyan Uygur Autonomous Region, Tibet, Afghanistan, and similar mountainous plains.
Anti-tank self-propelled may be on demand as an export commodity for the Arab countries, and perhaps southern Africa.
The weakest point is self-propelled easy booking, they can be very vulnerable to penetration of the tanks in their ranks. Frontal booking self-propelled guns can be strengthened invoice combined armor, but it is expensive. Security of can be strengthened with sandbags or pits, but this limits mobility and requires time to prepare. Most maneuverability of the gun can not be required, the time lost to training of passive protection, can greatly reduce the speed of deployment of defensive lines. And with the tactics of the guns, put a barrier in the way of tanks, it is less tangible.
Self-propelled guns are vulnerable to reduce the range of sight and in the breakthrough. Smokescreens to cover up the offensive tanks can greatly reduce the effectiveness of guns. If the tanks penetrated the ranks of the guns, guns are very vulnerable because of its low maneuverability and armor protection.
Vulnerabilities guns can be compensated for the tactics of battle, the breakout defensive lines, self-propelled guns can quickly retreat to the other line.

Anti-tank self-propelled gun, to fight with tanks and other armored vehicles in open terrain. Perhaps demand, especially in northern China, Mongolia, Afghanistan, and other northern border countries, as it allows the tanks to shoot from a distance while remaining inaccessible to the tank guns. Sama gun easier to manufacture and cheaper than tanks, so it can be an effective means of defense against enemy armor.
The gun should have a sight distance shots, 5, 7 kilometers. This range allows the gun to shoot at the tanks remained out of reach for the return fire tanks, or on the boundary of effective fire, at which more powerful self-propelled guns will have the advantage.
For self-propelled guns would be to use the classic traditional gun, with traditional shells. But a large range of fire and the need for increased accuracy leads to thoughts about possible solutions of novation.
Power gun and the projectile velocity can be increased through the use of emerging technologies. Most likely, I think hydrogen gun, or gun powder gases heated by electric current. Probably the same way or use an electromagnetic or hybrid powder - an electromagnetic gun, but in the development of electromagnetic guns so far no significant results, moreover, they are obviously more expensive.
Increase the power gun and the projectile velocity can be due to increase in temperature of powder gases or reduce their molecular weight.
Raise the temperature can be further electrically heated propellant gases Kanel barrel. For this purpose appropriate to use a special powder with reduced molecular weight of the powder gases. For example a mixture of thermoplastic ballistic with oil and ammonium nitrate 70, 80%, such powder combustion provides relatively cold, but light gases, besides it is cheaper. Electric heating, can raise the temperature of gases, and increase their volume and velocity of propagation, up to 3.3 3.7 kilometers per second. This gives the projectile velocity of about 2.5 kilometers per second, for both emerging electromagnetic guns.
As a source of energy can be used unipolar generator. Turbine rotor spins up to high speed, the current from the rotor is removed by electromagnetic coils.
If you want a gun with electric heating, can shoot projectiles at a traditional powder, or shells of composite powder without heating, but at the same speed projectiles will not be high.
In addition to the advantages in power, the guns are electrically low cost shots. Gunpowder dilute ammonium nitrate is several times cheaper.
Hydrogen gun distinguished by a special powder and gunpowder hydrogen combustion provides hot hydrogen, but forms a solid slag, which remains in the barrel after firing.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Hydrogen gun, theoretically increases the velocity of the projectile up to space, but little more than a few kilometers per second makes no sense. Air resistance would pay too high a speed.
Hydrogen gun can not be used on tanks because of the design features, but it is suitable for self-propelled guns.
Guns of increased power and speed of the projectile can pierce tanks from a distance. But for a more effective fire on the large distances it makes sense to equip the missiles boosters and guidance system.
Engines best air direct-flow, and speed for them and a suitable fuel they consume in moderation.
The Americans are developing a shell for the tank gun with straight through the engine to ethylene. But this engine has its drawbacks, the Americans have a complicated and sensitive version of the engine.
Hybrid solid rocket motor - air-flow would be much more convenient. Solid fuel has a higher density and caloric content, the engines themselves are much simpler. Especially if you use external expansion nozzle. In the hybrid engine, the gases generated by solid fuel may leak through the perforated rim on the projectile, which makes the fuel supply system and air-fuel mixture is extremely simple.
Engines, with solid-gas generators and nozzle external expansion may be structurally very simple, and therefore cheaper and more reliable.
The shells have a range of sighting shots to 7, and eventually to 10, 12 miles, it makes sense to make a manageable, due to the fact that its own ballistics gun at such distances is not guaranteed hit.
Control system shells should be simple and robust. Suits with a laser-guided to coordinate field, like aviation, anti-tank missile (ATGM attack), the cannon shells no dead zones, this is another plus in favor of remote control.
Guided missiles virtually guarantee a hit every shot. They are resistant to interference such as curtains or aerosol screens, knocking target missiles.
The benefits of guided missiles before the missiles can add a high speed throughout the trajectory. Projectiles with kinetic striking elements have a greater destructive force than the shaped-charge warhead anti-tank missiles. Furthermore, from the cumulative jets can protect a combined armor, and from a hypersonic verbs effective protection there.
The main task of self-propelled anti-tank guns, to stop the tanks on the approach to the line of defense.
But it can also be used for firing at the tank columns on the march from the ambush. What can contribute to the hilly terrain, such as in Sidzyan Uygur Autonomous Region, Tibet, Afghanistan, and similar mountainous plains.
Anti-tank self-propelled may be on demand as an export commodity for the Arab countries, and perhaps southern Africa.
The weakest point is self-propelled easy booking, they can be very vulnerable to penetration of the tanks in their ranks. Frontal booking self-propelled guns can be strengthened invoice combined armor, but it is expensive. Security of can be strengthened with sandbags or pits, but this limits mobility and requires time to prepare. Most maneuverability of the gun can not be required, the time lost to training of passive protection, can greatly reduce the speed of deployment of defensive lines. And with the tactics of the guns, put a barrier in the way of tanks, it is less tangible.
Self-propelled guns are vulnerable to reduce the range of sight and in the breakthrough. Smokescreens to cover up the offensive tanks can greatly reduce the effectiveness of guns. If the tanks penetrated the ranks of the guns, guns are very vulnerable because of its low maneuverability and armor protection.
Vulnerabilities guns can be compensated for the tactics of battle, the breakout defensive lines, self-propelled guns can quickly retreat to the other line.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

duskylim

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Here's an idea for a much more practical innovation that will have implications the world over.

NORINCO or the Russians should make a longer-range precision-guided version of RPG-7 (and similar model) ammunition.

Rather than relying on the skill of the individual gunner over open sights, with the use of a guided round 1st round, 1st shot kills could almost be assured.

Imagine the implications of this development:

Small groups of soldiers the world over equipped with RPG's would be able to hit rapidly-moving tanks, armored vehicles and even low-flying aircraft within the lethal range consistenly - making it far more difficult and costly for the 'imperial' powers to wage unjust wars against them!

Casualties for them would probably go up by at least a factor of 10! - until they learned to keep their distance.

Driving around at high speed within hostile zones would be suicidal.

It would effectively end 'hearts-and-minds' operations within enemy-controlled territories.

They would be unable to send mercenary soldiers into these areas - Blackwater's operations would end.

Theft and exploitation of a regions natural resources would be almost impossible to undertake without prohibitive losses.

This is one innovation that is crying out for fulfillment.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Here's an idea for a much more practical innovation that will have implications the world over.

NORINCO or the Russians should make a longer-range precision-guided version of RPG-7 (and similar model) ammunition.

Rather than relying on the skill of the individual gunner over open sights, with the use of a guided round 1st round, 1st shot kills could almost be assured.

Imagine the implications of this development:

Small groups of soldiers the world over equipped with RPG's would be able to hit rapidly-moving tanks, armored vehicles and even low-flying aircraft within the lethal range consistenly - making it far more difficult and costly for the 'imperial' powers to wage unjust wars against them!

Casualties for them would probably go up by at least a factor of 10! - until they learned to keep their distance.

Driving around at high speed within hostile zones would be suicidal.

It would effectively end 'hearts-and-minds' operations within enemy-controlled territories.

They would be unable to send mercenary soldiers into these areas - Blackwater's operations would end.

Theft and exploitation of a regions natural resources would be almost impossible to undertake without prohibitive losses.

This is one innovation that is crying out for fulfillment.
But that type of munition would not be as cheap as the current RPG-7 stock plus with guidance and stuff like that, it would no doubt weigh much more too.

RPG-7 is relatively cheap and can be mass produced at a great number in a short time, it is a no brainer type of weapon that is easy to use, durable and can be quite effective against bunkers, unprotected infantries and soft armour. However with the innovation added in, the cost is going to be too high, is more complicated to manufacture, build in great number and also required some skills from the firers.
 

duskylim

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Yes it is true that the precision-guided round would be much more expensive but that is NOT the point.

The key is to secure a First-shot, First-round hit - and then follow-up using the much cheaper ordinary rounds.

For example, typically most convoys of armored vehicles try to avoid RPG fire by driving along erratically at very high speed in order to become much more difficult targets and spoil the RPG gunner's aim.

If you have the precision round then you can attack the convoy by 1st destroying the lead vehicle and then the last or tail vehicle in the convoy - and then you can destroy all the vehicles in-between at you leisure using conventional rounds - as they are trapped between the two end vehicles and can't maneuver to escape.

Also once you've made a critical hit with the precision rounds - all follow up shots can be made with conventional ammo - because you've wounded your prey.

All-in-all the availability of such ammunition will make attacks like I have described much easier to undertake successfully - and reduce the freedom of maneuver of your opponent.

Also, if such a round could be made effective against low-flying aircraft and helicopters - out to a range of maybe 2 to 3 km, close air-support and ground attack become that much more difficult.

It would become in effect the poor-man's equalizer vs a massively conventionally superior opponent.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Yes it is true that the precision-guided round would be much more expensive but that is NOT the point.

The key is to secure a First-shot, First-round hit - and then follow-up using the much cheaper ordinary rounds.

For example, typically most convoys of armored vehicles try to avoid RPG fire by driving along erratically at very high speed in order to become much more difficult targets and spoil the RPG gunner's aim.

If you have the precision round then you can attack the convoy by 1st destroying the lead vehicle and then the last or tail vehicle in the convoy - and then you can destroy all the vehicles in-between at you leisure using conventional rounds - as they are trapped between the two end vehicles and can't maneuver to escape.

Also once you've made a critical hit with the precision rounds - all follow up shots can be made with conventional ammo - because you've wounded your prey.

All-in-all the availability of such ammunition will make attacks like I have described much easier to undertake successfully - and reduce the freedom of maneuver of your opponent.

Also, if such a round could be made effective against low-flying aircraft and helicopters - out to a range of maybe 2 to 3 km, close air-support and ground attack become that much more difficult.

It would become in effect the poor-man's equalizer vs a massively conventionally superior opponent.
No. Because such rounds are expensive and I don't think they will be cheaper by alot in comparism to anti-tank missiles. The main thing about RPG was to arm your men quickly, with minimal training and allow them to go into war.

Nations that are richer have phased out RPG in favour of missiles and those anti-infantry role are given to other more powerful single round rockets. Those in third world country might not be able to afford the rounds that you have described.
 

maozedong

Banned Idiot
The Chinese authorities are known to actively adopt technological innovations from around the world to develop its economy.
This trend is in the Chinese military industrial complex
It would be interesting to talk about innovations that could potentially be a demand in the Chinese army.
I think China military industrial technological innovation much earlier than economy, ofcourse, it's unbalance, after adopt technological innovations from around the world to develop its economy, and complex in military industry,the Chinese military industry progress getting faster.
like China nuclear bomb in 1964, launched sat missile in 1970, built SSN in 1972,Chinese military industry usly go faster than economy.
 

no_name

Major
Yes it is true that the precision-guided round would be much more expensive but that is NOT the point.

The key is to secure a First-shot, First-round hit - and then follow-up using the much cheaper ordinary rounds.

For example, typically most convoys of armored vehicles try to avoid RPG fire by driving along erratically at very high speed in order to become much more difficult targets and spoil the RPG gunner's aim.

If you have the precision round then you can attack the convoy by 1st destroying the lead vehicle and then the last or tail vehicle in the convoy - and then you can destroy all the vehicles in-between at you leisure using conventional rounds - as they are trapped between the two end vehicles and can't maneuver to escape.

Also once you've made a critical hit with the precision rounds - all follow up shots can be made with conventional ammo - because you've wounded your prey.

All-in-all the availability of such ammunition will make attacks like I have described much easier to undertake successfully - and reduce the freedom of maneuver of your opponent.

Also, if such a round could be made effective against low-flying aircraft and helicopters - out to a range of maybe 2 to 3 km, close air-support and ground attack become that much more difficult.

It would become in effect the poor-man's equalizer vs a massively conventionally superior opponent.
The tactic that you are describing could also be implemented with two dedicated anti-tank missiles and rpg-7s in-between. Also the niche between a guided rpg-7 and an anti-tank missile is narrow.
 

duskylim

Junior Member
VIP Professional
A good example of how such a round would affect operations would be to study the Philippine Army's operations against the local Muslim separatists - the MNLF and the MILF.

Both those groups are equipped with various forms of RPG's and RPG-clones, some even assembled locally.

The tactic of the Philippine Army - when entering areas controlled by them or suspected to have separatist presence is to drive their AFV's (mostly wheeled APC's) very rapidly and erratically along the roads - in order to present a difficult target for the RPG gunners.

Those tactics are often shown in action reports by local news media.

This is quite similar to the tactics of evasion used by the US armed forces and mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Many RPG rounds were expended but no hits were obtained.

If a guided round were available, then a 1st-shot, 1st-kill situation would almost certainly be the result - greatly improving the success rate of the separatist's engagements and increasing the difficulties of the local armed forces.

What if every engagement with them resulted in lost APC's - the human, material and monetary cost of this alone would preclude extended or large-scale operations - effectively defeating the governments pacification efforts.

The fact is, it is very difficult for most of these small-scale local militias to obtain anti-tank missiles - for various reasons, but the acquisition of specialized ammunition for their RPG's already in widespread service would not present insuperable difficulties.

The front portion of the RPG warhead, being a shaped-charge is in fact an EMPTY cone - a space that could easily be filled with the guidance electronics - which I need not remind you are growing more compact and capable all the time.

Bleeding a portion of the propulsion rocket motor's thrust in order to power the servo-mechanisms for guidance would not materially affect the range, nor the complexity of the round itself - indeed the basic round has a quartet of very large, folding guide fins that extend upon emerging from the launch tube.

One could, for example put graphite vanes (ala V-2) into the rocket nozzle using them to deflect the exhaust stream for guidance.

The possibilities are endless and the design solutions well-known and tried.

From a simple dumb-bunker buster one could turn the RPG into a giant-killer.

It could even serve as a basic anti-aircraft weapon against helicopters and low-flying ground attack aircraft.

The whole exercise is like making a dumb bomb smarter - rather than building an expensive specialized missile to do the same job.

Look at the success of the smart bomb program - its time to do the same for the individual weapon.
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
A good example of how such a round would affect operations would be to study the Philippine Army's operations against the local Muslim separatists - the MNLF and the MILF.

Both those groups are equipped with various forms of RPG's and RPG-clones, some even assembled locally.

The tactic of the Philippine Army - when entering areas controlled by them or suspected to have separatist presence is to drive their AFV's (mostly wheeled APC's) very rapidly and erratically along the roads - in order to present a difficult target for the RPG gunners.

Those tactics are often shown in action reports by local news media.

This is quite similar to the tactics of evasion used by the US armed forces and mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Many RPG rounds were expended but no hits were obtained.

If a guided round were available, then a 1st-shot, 1st-kill situation would almost certainly be the result - greatly improving the success rate of the separatist's engagements and increasing the difficulties of the local armed forces.

What if every engagement with them resulted in lost APC's - the human, material and monetary cost of this alone would preclude extended or large-scale operations - effectively defeating the governments pacification efforts.

The fact is, it is very difficult for most of these small-scale local militias to obtain anti-tank missiles - for various reasons, but the acquisition of specialized ammunition for their RPG's already in widespread service would not present insuperable difficulties.

The front portion of the RPG warhead, being a shaped-charge is in fact an EMPTY cone - a space that could easily be filled with the guidance electronics - which I need not remind you are growing more compact and capable all the time.

Bleeding a portion of the propulsion rocket motor's thrust in order to power the servo-mechanisms for guidance would not materially affect the range, nor the complexity of the round itself - indeed the basic round has a quartet of very large, folding guide fins that extend upon emerging from the launch tube.

One could, for example put graphite vanes (ala V-2) into the rocket nozzle using them to deflect the exhaust stream for guidance.

The possibilities are endless and the design solutions well-known and tried.

From a simple dumb-bunker buster one could turn the RPG into a giant-killer.

The whole exercise is like making a dumb bomb smarter - rather than building an expensive specialized missile to do the same job.

Look at the success of the smart bomb program - its time to do the same for the individual weapon.
What you say is true except for a small detail. How are the separaist gonna get hold of the electronic. and how are they going to be specialise enough to manufacture these 'high tech' equipment.

Most third world countries that still uses the RPG are mainly very poor and with wealth resting on very little number of people who actually do not care for anything but themselves.

Plus... one more thing, to make a round guided, it is not just the empty cone that was to be laid with electronic components and equipment. The entire round had to be involve, how else would the round be guided? So it is not a simple feat to modify and upgrades these rounds and most certainly it those poorer nation or insurgents wouldn't have the capability or knowledge to do it unless there are some form of support from a third party nation like CHina.

As for China, I think they are slowly phasing out the RPG or their equivalent in favour for better anti-tank and anti-bunker weaponries... and the on hand RPG are being flowed down to second line troops and militia. so there is no need to spent massive amount of dollars to upgrades these weaponries.
 

SteelBird

Major
I have a different idea; what about a high speed kinetic-energy-kill RPG round? For example, 1500m/s? The RPG-7's projectile moves slowly and they're single shot that they're likely to miss a fast moving target. If you add speed and multiple shot (2 to 4 shots) to it, the hit probability may raise highly.
 

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