AEGIS and AEGIS Like escort combatants of the World

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Just by the T45 having a higher placed main radar, the Type 45 is superior to the 054B in engaging sea-skimming AShM (the most common threat to a ship right now). Aster is a lighter, smaller "dart", with bigger wings and PIF-PAF in comparison to HQ-16F which is a very big and heavy missile without a lot of control surfaces, this most likely means that Aster has a better p/k. There are a bunch of S-band GaN AESAs in Europe, but many of the warships carrying them are currently in the building process. Some examples are: NS100, Sea Fire, TRS-4D, Giraffe 4A, SPY-7.

If you honestly believe that then there's no point in having a discussion with you. The ships are meant for very different missions. Regarding overall capability (ASW, ASUW & AAW combined), I agree that Type 054B has an edge over T45 but the T45 is a specialist AAW as I've told you many times.

The HQ-16's cousin, the Buk, has popped everything from HIMARS rockets to AGM-88s. Plus it's about the weight and size of a Standard SM-2 missile, has similar wing configuration, that in fact the Soviets were accused of copying it. You also forget that given the missiles are VLS launched they would have thrust vectoring, which the HQ-16s have over the Buks which don't have thrust vectoring.

As for GaN, China makes and processes it to the point it globally dominates this industry. The compound is so freaking common it is commonly used in smartphone chargers. It is natural the Chinese would exploit the compound for various uses including radar, just as they did with rare earth elements and permanent magnets. Recently China has decided to ban exports of the stuff.

It maybe higher placed but not by much. The problem with SAMPSON is that it is an S-band radar and S-band doesn't do well with sea clutter near the surface level compared to higher frequency bands. That's why the Baseline 9 AEGIS adds an X-band SPQ-9C for surface level detection while the Chinese uses the C-band Type 364 radar on top of just about every ship. The 055 boasts a four set of X-band radars and the latest batch of 052D has rotating AESAs now on the top mast that boasts C/X band frequency.

Another point to be made is that SAMPSON is air cooled while the 052C used hybrid air and liquid cooling while the 052D uses liquid cooling. Even with all GaAS used, liquid cooling is a guarantor that the elements would have higher peak power that would necessitate such use of cooling.
 

zavve

New Member
Registered Member
The HQ-16's cousin, the Buk, has popped everything from HIMARS rockets to AGM-88s. Plus it's about the weight and size of a Standard SM-2 missile, has similar wing configuration, that in fact the Soviets were accused of copying it. You also forget that given the missiles are VLS launched they would have thrust vectoring, which the HQ-16s have over the Buks which don't have thrust vectoring.
Yes? Still does not change the fact that the Aster probably has a better p/k. I'm by no means saying that the HQ-16 is a bad missile, it is a very good missile with a big opportunity for further development. I don't doubt that the HQ-16F is on par with SM-2 Blk IIIC in terms of p/k. But it's a big, heavy missile and even with thrust vectoring, I doubt it can match the Aster in p/k as the Aster is a lighter, smaller "dart" with PIF-PAF.
It maybe higher placed but not by much. The problem with SAMPSON is that it is an S-band radar and S-band doesn't do well with sea clutter near the surface level compared to higher frequency bands.
Type 45 is about 39m high (T26 is about 35m for reference), I would be very interested if anyone could figure out the radar height for Type 054B. Since the T45 only has ARH missiles, the S-band was a conscious choice since you don't need the same target clarity as SARH missiles.
That's why the Baseline 9 AEGIS adds an X-band SPQ-9C for surface level detection while the Chinese uses the C-band Type 364 radar on top of just about every ship. The 055 boasts a four set of X-band radars and the latest batch of 052D has rotating AESAs now on the top mast that boasts C/X band frequency.
SAMPSON is a considerably bigger radar either SPQ-9B* (which predates AEGIS baseline 9 by some margin) or the radar on top of Type 052D. The Royal Navy uses a very different design philosophy than the PLAN/USN philosophy. Interestingly the USN did have a programme called AMDR-X which would be in the same league as the X-Band radar on Type 055, Does anyone on this forum have more details about this programme I would love to hear it!
Another point to be made is that SAMPSON is air cooled while the 052C used hybrid air and liquid cooling while the 052D uses liquid cooling. Even with all GaAS used, liquid cooling is a guarantor that the elements would have higher peak power that would necessitate such use of cooling.
SAMPSON was specifically designed with air cooling in mind to be able to mount it as high as possible. It is a pretty low-voltage (25kW) radar.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes? Still does not change the fact that the Aster probably has a better p/k. I'm by no means saying that the HQ-16 is a bad missile, it is a very good missile with a big opportunity for further development. I don't doubt that the HQ-16F is on par with SM-2 Blk IIIC in terms of p/k. But it's a big, heavy missile and even with thrust vectoring, I doubt it can match the Aster in p/k as the Aster is a lighter, smaller "dart" with PIF-PAF.
So you are arguing without any fact to back up? Everyone can say their favorite is probably better than something else.

Lighter and smaller does NOT mean more agile if that is what you want to say. It is the ratio of thrust vs. mass among others that determines agility. A heavier missile also has higher thrust. Just give you the perspective, a 30t something F-22 is more agile than a 12t F-16.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes? Still does not change the fact that the Aster probably has a better p/k. I'm by no means saying that the HQ-16 is a bad missile, it is a very good missile with a big opportunity for further development. I don't doubt that the HQ-16F is on par with SM-2 Blk IIIC in terms of p/k. But it's a big, heavy missile and even with thrust vectoring, I doubt it can match the Aster in p/k as the Aster is a lighter, smaller "dart" with PIF-PAF.

Aster having more wing surfaces means it's also draggier. This means loss of kinetic energy at terminal phase aka loss of pk.

Type 45 is about 39m high (T26 is about 35m for reference), I would be very interested if anyone could figure out the radar height for Type 054B. Since the T45 only has ARH missiles, the S-band was a conscious choice since you don't need the same target clarity as SARH missiles.

Height maybe an issue but when you are scanning near the water surface, S-Band is going to get more surface clutter, poorer target discrimination and poorer angular resolution than X-band. This means not only do have less or lower accuracy measuring target rate of speed, direction, actual location, you also get reflections off the rolling wavey water surface that appear as false targets.

This is why the USN choose an X-band radar for surface scanning, though the Chinese choose a C-band radar for this project. Albeit the SPQ-9B is already an existing radar in the inventory while the Type 346 is purposely made for this intention. The Russians have the Pozitiv radar that is currently used as a secondary radar in many ships supplementing the main S-band radar.

SAMPSON is a considerably bigger radar either SPQ-9B* (which predates AEGIS baseline 9 by some margin) or the radar on top of Type 052D. The Royal Navy uses a very different design philosophy than the PLAN/USN philosophy. Interestingly the USN did have a programme called AMDR-X which would be in the same league as the X-Band radar on Type 055, Does anyone on this forum have more details about this programme I would love to hear it!

Comparing an S-band radar to an X-band radar---what the SPQ-9B is--- is as foolish as comparing a paint roller to a 2" paint brush. The paint roller is better for painting the wall but the paint brush is superior for painting the corners, trim and art graffiti and such. S-band is for volume work but X-band is for precision. An X-band radar does not a big array because the element spacing is far denser as spacing is a factor of frequency but with the frequency much smaller and shorter, it allows you to have a much higher resolution. Do you understand why terminal missile guidance radars use X-band instead of S for this reason? The internet cannot wrap around their head that each frequency band has their own advantages and disadvantages that they are used for their specific purposes.

SPQ-9B's range only needs to be as far as the radar horizon can be since it is dedicated for searching for sea skimmers.

SAMPSON was specifically designed with air cooling in mind to be able to mount it as high as possible. It is a pretty low-voltage (25kW) radar.

It's a low power radar. The Chinese were smart enough to go fully liquid cooled very early with the 052D. The US didn't have a liquid cooled AESA till SPY-6.
 
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