054B/next generation frigate

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Things have certainly changed, the question is why. My contention is that the essentials of effective ASW favouring dual helo platforms have not changed since the late Cold War period, that what has changed for USN and most allied navies in recent decades is (a) the disappearance of the high-end, high-volume Soviet submarine threat that formerly demanded first-rate attention and (b) lower budgets reflecting that low-threat environment, which translates to fewer helicopters in service, with fewer pilots and technicians, fewer sensor packages, fewer munitions and lower parts inventories, such that having only one helo per ship is ultimately an easy and even attractive compromise to make, because the budget isn't there to do two helos properly anyway. My contention is that what we are seeing with all these single helo, supposedly ASW-focused ships is akin to a "minimum viable product", because services are trying to retain all the capabilities and proficiencies of the past while investing in contemporary and cutting-edge developments, all on relatively shoestring budgets and without clearly defined threat scenarios to focus their attention, leading to force structures that are all breadth and no depth.

It may well be impossible to do dual Seahawks on a modern Perry-sized hull given contemporary systems, crew habitability, survivability standards. But we are talking about a ship that is at least 50% larger than Perry and one that appears to be mostly a new design that is therefore not beholden to the compromises of the past.

My view is that ships like Perry and Spruance with dual helicopter hangars at the time were as much of a need driven by the lack of helicopter hangars aboard many of the USN's surface combatants at the time, as much as it was by the ASW demands of the era (and indeed, the USN's ASW demands of the era are also somewhat different to the PLAN's ASW demands of the current era, which is more relevant in the next part of my reply).


Absent photographic evidence of these ships with two helos in the hangar simultaneously, I am inclined to think you are correct. However I would note again that this is in the context of a force structure that is centered around dedicated ASW helicopter carriers (another concept that I think is worth exploring for PLAN).



My personal reference scale is late-Cold War USN, secondarily the Soviet Union of the same period and also JMSDF, because I believe that the submarine threat that PLAN confronts today, and the resources that PLAN can bring to bear to meet them, bears a greater resemblance to those eras, services and programs than to any contemporary points of comparison such as the modern European frigate programs. That perspective may well be miscalibrated or even simply wrong, but I hope that it is at least comprehensible.

I understand it, but that doesn't mean it's correct or constructive for this to come up every time we discuss a new surface combatant class or variant of a class.

The discussion around "how many hangars should a PLAN surface combatant has" is never just about that, because it is really asking "what kind of missions does or should the PLAN have".
That is a much bigger question than what a thread about XYZ surface combatant class can yield, but in terms of what is reasonable for a specific thread, in this case, I think it is very reasonable for us to say that 054B having a single helicopter hangar is very much in line with contemporary global trends and other contemporary frigates of this size and role and mission profile.
 

Blitzo

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1. That is a marketing number, but I strongly believe Aster has a substantially higher p/k than HQ-16F.
2. Nothing is "crucial" but I would argue radar height is a very important metric. If someone can figure out the height of the 054B that would be very interesting but I doubt it comes close to T45s 39m.
3. It certainly is not crucial, but it does strongly matter when it comes to AAW.
4. Of course, for example in ASW the Type 054B runs laps around the T45, which does not even have a towed array.
5. Please provide some arguments, IMO all of those ships are clearly superior to the 054B in terms of AAW.

The HQ-16 is a big and heavy missile. Aster is a dart with PIF-PAF, with a booster attached. Which missiles would you think would have a better p/k? BTW, the Aster is not British, it is Franco-Italian. And what disparity in electronics and missile engineering? MBDA and Thales are some of the most experienced companies for missiles in the world...

If you do not know if the quality of SAMPSON is up to par, then maybe ask a question instead of making assumptions. When excluding AAW Type 45 is not comparable to Type 054B, simply because Type 45 is an AAW specialist.

To everyone, this is becoming a discussion about the Type 45 rather than 054B, which was inevitable the moment that the comparison between the two warship types were made.

Take the Type 45 discussion to the general AAW warships thread.


Further posts that focus excessively on AAW comparisons between 054B and other specific classes in this thread will be deleted (whether it's about Type 45, or Aegis combatants).
 

SquireAU

New Member
Registered Member
伏尔戈星图 on Weibo suggests that 054B does not use independent electric propulsion, and instead is pure CODAD with 4 x 20RK270 medium-speed diesel engines that deliver 6875kw and up to 7550kw for brief bursts.

If true, 054B would simply be a larger version of 054A and not truely a leap in capability; in other words not on the same technical level as FREMM or Type 26.

I think the analysis of 20RK270 Diesel engines is solid, but I am not convinced (yet) that it's pure CODAD; i.e. the two openings that he identifies as belonging to MTU 396 generators could also be for electric motors. Otherwise, it's a bit hard to see why 054B was delayed and 054A production restarted.

What do you think?

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Screenshot 2023-09-04 at 12.20.01 pm.png


Screenshot 2023-09-04 at 12.19.17 pm.png
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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伏尔戈星图 on Weibo suggests that 054B does not use independent electric propulsion, and instead is pure CODAD with 4 x 20RK270 medium-speed diesel engines that deliver 6875kw and up to 7550kw for brief bursts.

If true, 054B would simply be a larger version of 054A and not truely a leap in capability; in other words not on the same technical level as FREMM or Type 26.

I think the analysis of 20RK270 Diesel engines is solid, but I am not convinced (yet) that it's pure CODAD; i.e. the two openings that he identifies as belonging to MTU 396 generators could also be for electric motors. Otherwise, it's a bit hard to see why 054B was delayed and 054A production restarted.

What do you think?

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View attachment 118148


View attachment 118152

Too early to tell.

Having clear images of the exhaust stacks would be useful, but even then if we saw only four exhausts consistent with only diesels (no gas), it is impossible to externally verify if they are CODAD only, or CODLAD or IEPS.
 

by78

General
A closer look at the masts and the scaffolding.

53163040884_365191a5b1_o.jpg
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53163266290_ac57ff8f0b_o.jpg
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
The ESM mast on the back looks a bit more stuffed with things compared to the ESM mast on the 055 and 052D. There maybe added functionality. There's now a TACAN on top of it too.
 

grulle

Junior Member
Registered Member
there's definitely no empty slant launchers in the middle of the ship. if there were there by design they would've launched with the ship. perhaps suggesting a middle VLS? *fingers crossed*
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
伏尔戈星图 on Weibo suggests that 054B does not use independent electric propulsion, and instead is pure CODAD with 4 x 20RK270 medium-speed diesel engines that deliver 6875kw and up to 7550kw for brief bursts.

If true, 054B would simply be a larger version of 054A and not truely a leap in capability; in other words not on the same technical level as FREMM or Type 26.

I think the analysis of 20RK270 Diesel engines is solid, but I am not convinced (yet) that it's pure CODAD; i.e. the two openings that he identifies as belonging to MTU 396 generators could also be for electric motors. Otherwise, it's a bit hard to see why 054B was delayed and 054A production restarted.

What do you think?

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View attachment 118148


View attachment 118152
Having GT or not is not the defination of IEPS.
 
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