054B/next generation FFG thread


Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
The Type 054A frigate is a monohull and also a war ship.
You gave me an example of a catamaran that is a ferry. How is this related to the topic?

Why don't you give me an example of a piston engine powered, monohull, warship that can sustain 30 knots, I'd appreciate it.
also
We're talking about propeller driven. Let's stay on topic please.

What about the Karakurt class?

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Once again, the Iver Huitfeldt class.

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Back in WW2, the Z51, which blows through at 36 knots.

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Type 23 frigates are in excess of 28 knots. These are diesel electric ships used with ASW.

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Here is a transport vessel that can max at 30 knots.

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charles18

New Member
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What about the Karakurt class?

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Once again, the Iver Huitfeldt class.

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Back in WW2, the Z51, which blows through at 36 knots.

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Okay fair enough.
Question:
Why did most navies overwhelmingly chose turbines instead of diesels for their 30 knot ships.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Okay fair enough.
Question:
Why did most navies overwhelmingly chose turbines instead of diesels for their 30 knot ships.

There is also this famous ship I must add. It will do 30 knots all day.

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This leaves me with the question if a new frigate with four diesel electrics with electric motors would still qualify as a "054" or be referred to as a new Type 0XX number.

The advantage of gas turbine is power density. A relatively smaller engine can produce higher power in ratio. This is great for small vessels to move faster.

The advantage of diesels is thermal efficiency. More mechanical energy is converted from a drop of fuel than wasted in heat. This is great for small vessels to move farther. This is why the world's commercial fleet has voted overwhelmingly on diesel over the years.

The vast majority of navies choosing turbines does not mean the PLAN will. The Type 054A is already an outlier among frigates around the world for being all diesel, and has proven to be very successful for the PLAN. Every blue water mission and expedition by the PLAN since this ship's inception includes at least one of these ships. In fact its likely because of the PLAN's increasing blue water focus aligns with a ship that can operate over range economically, maintain and sustain patrols for the amount of dollars or yuan used. The PLAN also put diesels on its AOE, LHD and LPD when other countries use gas turbines. The fact that CSSC may already be in the global edge of diesel engine development along with the Germans, also means you have an engineer clique that further favors the design of diesel powered ships and warships.

This isn't about what you or I think should go into a ship. Its about what they think.

Once again, if the "054B" moniker is maintained, due to the PLAN typing, this is likely an improvement of the basic 054 platform.

If "054B" turns out to be only a working name, and the real name is something like "057" or "058", then it gets interesting that we may have the possibility of a new power train and platform.
 
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Gloire_bb

Senior Member
Registered Member
The advantage of gas turbine is power density. A relatively smaller engine can produce higher power in ratio. This is great for small vessels to move faster.
Turbine is great in general on continuous high-power runs.
Thus it isn't really about small vessels - on the contrary, smaller high-speed vessels tend to go for light, low-resource diesel.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
First of all how absolutely sure are you the 054A is truly limited to 27 knots? We see it regularly with Liaoning battle groups. Don't assume everything you read on paper is absolutely true to the right number. Top speeds you read about is just some kind of general assumed ceiling but it may not be the actual operating ceiling. Only the PLAN knows their true ceiling.
With 20MW propulsion power it does appear underpowered compared to the similar sized Oliver Hazard Perry class with 2 LM2500 gas turbines (1/2 power of a AB destroyer). Officially, the top speed of OHP’s is 29+ knots. I’ve seen estimates of 33 knots.
 
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Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
No. There is no such rule. Gas turbines are used in warships and yatches because they are weight and volume efficient. Take a 6000 tons frigate and install it 2 x 30000 hp diesels and it would hit 40 knots.
Fletcher class destroyers displaced 2,500 tons and had 60,000 HP. Their top speed was about 37 knots.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
With 20MW propulsion power it does appear underpowered compared to the similar sized Oliver Hazard Perry class with 2 LM2500 gas turbines (1/2 power of a AB destroyer). Officially, the top speed of OHP’s is 29+ knots. I’ve seen estimates of 33 knots.

The PLAN is not going for better, they are going for good enough. For them the 054A is obviously good enough, and cheap to run.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
The PLAN is not going for better, they are going for good enough. For them the 054A is obviously good enough, and cheap to run.
Good enough for what, that’s the question. When they designed the hull in the late 90s, early 00s an aircraft carrier was distant future.
 

Gloire_bb

Senior Member
Registered Member
Good enough for what, that’s the question. When they designed the hull in the late 90s, early 00s an aircraft carrier was distant future.
Frigate tasks aren't exactly starship-level.
type 31 from the previous page is a nice example how little you really need to be a frigate - and how easy is it to screw up by aiming for the stars.

Rank-and-file warships are not about being cool.
 

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