Star Wars & Sc-Fi Talk

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I also Agree With the Idea that a Chinese Superhero should be a result of Chinese culture.
Although one Would have to wonder what A new Idealized Super hero From the PRC would be like.
I mean If you were to apply a Strict interpretation of Socialist Ideas, Superheros are Contrary. They are an Elitist a being who by no means could ever actually stand as true equals under the Proletariat or state.
I mean if you as a regular human went and committed a crime and were caught In theory you would be brought before the law and face a equal state punishment, But a super powered Superhero Especially Superman could never be considered a Equal.
I mean You can't punish him like a human. Nor capture and hold him in a Jail with any real Chance unless he choose to be there. If you tried to stop him physically He would lay waste to Armies and Navies and more. He could lay waste to cities It's like a Godzilla movie Where the SDF tries to stop G He stands their lets you fire every thing you got and then Vaporizes.

From time to time Batman is noted as saying that he is a criminal that all members of the Justice league are.
And technically He is accurate. He and the rest of the super hero club with the possible exceptions of Agents of Shield like Captain America or War Machine are not empowered by any government or body to Enforce the Law or Abide by the laws of nations. They are no matter the fancy dress Vigilantes. And in a Interpretation an indication that the Justice system of their body politic is Wrong or failing.

For a Strict Socialist state The Presence of Vigilantism would indicate inequality in the system and be a indication that the socialist government is failing to perform the duties it has taken upon it's self. IE Why is it that Superman had to save me? Why could the government not?

Batman in The Dark Knight returns appeals not to the law but the sense of Community. He knows Gotham is broken but He still works not always in the system but for rectification of it. He says These are you're Homes, your neighbors, Your Friends, your loved ones In trouble So Rather then rely on Others do for yourself and those around you not because they tell you but because You Know you should.
This is a very differing interpretation and allows for The superhero as it is a Individual Taking the Responsibility for doing justice. This interpretation is based on the idea that the system can only be broken if you allow it to be broken. Crime will only continue if you put up your hands and say it's not my problem.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I also Agree With the Idea that a Chinese Superhero should be a result of Chinese culture.
Although one Would have to wonder what A new Idealized Super hero From the PRC would be like.
I mean If you were to apply a Strict interpretation of Socialist Ideas, Superheros are Contrary. They are an Elitist a being who by no means could ever actually stand as true equals under the Proletariat or state.
I mean if you as a regular human went and committed a crime and were caught In theory you would be brought before the law and face a equal state punishment, But a super powered Superhero Especially Superman could never be considered a Equal.
I mean You can't punish him like a human. Nor capture and hold him in a Jail with any real Chance unless he choose to be there. If you tried to stop him physically He would lay waste to Armies and Navies and more. He could lay waste to cities It's like a Godzilla movie Where the SDF tries to stop G He stands their lets you fire every thing you got and then Vaporizes.

From time to time Batman is noted as saying that he is a criminal that all members of the Justice league are.
And technically He is accurate. He and the rest of the super hero club with the possible exceptions of Agents of Shield like Captain America or War Machine are not empowered by any government or body to Enforce the Law or Abide by the laws of nations. They are no matter the fancy dress Vigilantes. And in a Interpretation an indication that the Justice system of their body politic is Wrong or failing.

For a Strict Socialist state The Presence of Vigilantism would indicate inequality in the system and be a indication that the socialist government is failing to perform the duties it has taken upon it's self. IE Why is it that Superman had to save me? Why could the government not?

Batman in The Dark Knight returns appeals not to the law but the sense of Community. He knows Gotham is broken but He still works not always in the system but for rectification of it. He says These are you're Homes, your neighbors, Your Friends, your loved ones In trouble So Rather then rely on Others do for yourself and those around you not because they tell you but because You Know you should.
This is a very differing interpretation and allows for The superhero as it is a Individual Taking the Responsibility for doing justice. This interpretation is based on the idea that the system can only be broken if you allow it to be broken. Crime will only continue if you put up your hands and say it's not my problem.

A good analysis, and this is where the Wuxia tradition would come in handy. The "Xia" were people with extraordinary martial skills, and who used those skills to help the oppressed. There are no contemporary Wuxia stories because, as you have noted, their existence itself is a condemnation of the authorities. Some of the earliest Wuxia stories were written in Ming dynasty but set in earlier dynasties.

Nevertheless, if one were to produce a Chinese superhero culture, this is where they should start.

The Xia derived their powers from their martial skills, which sometimes allowed them to perform superhuman feats. They were rebels bound by a code of honor. Wealth and power in the mundane political structure meant nothing to them. Instead, they lived in a world of their own, the Jianghu, and had their own forms of organization and structure. Their reputation was more important than their very lives.

If we were to modernize this narrative framework, we would have to subsume these elements into modern society and beliefs. We cannot simply carry those elements over and give them a modern makeup. For example, the world of Jianghu is, in modern terms, simply the criminal underworld, which would make it rather problematic to define Xia as heroes. Rebel against past authorities, and you're a hero. Rebel against the current authority, and you are a criminal.

Instead, for the Xia to work in a modern setting, they need to be given a veneer of legitimacy. Perhaps the PRC government recruited them to form a super-elite counter-terrorism unit. Their martial skills would be supplemented with futuristic technology. However, instead of employing them in the same manner as other law enforcement units, they are given a high degree of autonomy and cover identities, so they can track down threats that normal law enforcement units cannot.

The threats themselves need to be superpowered as well. The traditional villains in Wuxia stories are ambitious individualists who care nothing for the welfare of others. This would be much easier to transpose into a modern setting. Perhaps there's an inexplicable rise of superpowered criminals, or perhaps terrorists got their hands on a supersoldier program. Or perhaps "yaoguai" exists for real and the heroes are tasked with eliminating them.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
the Xia to work in a modern setting, they need to be given a veneer of legitimacy. Perhaps the PRC government recruited them to form a super-elite counter-terrorism unit. Their martial skills would be supplemented with futuristic technology. However, instead of employing them in the same manner as other law enforcement units, they are given a high degree of autonomy and cover identities, so they can track down threats that normal law enforcement units cannot.

The threats themselves need to be superpowered as well. The traditional villains in Wuxia stories are ambitious individualists who care nothing for the welfare of others. This would be much easier to transpose into a modern setting. Perhaps there's an inexplicable rise of superpowered criminals, or perhaps terrorists got their hands on a supersoldier program. Or perhaps "yaoguai" exists for real and the heroes are tasked with eliminating them.
This is kinda interesting because, This is almost Captain America. Cap in his most common back story was created to Counter the Threat of the Fascist super villain Red Skull using the same formula Which has by some means become the basis for half the marvel universe.
This also blends well with more Marvel like Dr. Strange, Iron Fist and Blade.

Another factor to consider though is that DC would want this to interplay with their existing universe and Here I think we can play a bit with the old ones. Victor Savage and Ras Al Gaul both have extremely long lives and no doubt could have played important roles in earlier dynasties of China. Ras is I think Especially interesting for your Yaoguai as his name is more or less The Demon.
There is also Dr. Fate to consider if you wish the magic route and Wonder Woman although based on a more the Greek, is in the comics potentially as old as the Whole of Chinese History.

In any point what I see here is almost like a Jacky Chan Film I once saw where Ancient Chinese Vampires were awakening and Hong Kong kept the last Vampire hunters on the Pay roll with Jacky Chan along for comedy.
 

solarz

Brigadier
This is kinda interesting because, This is almost Captain America. Cap in his most common back story was created to Counter the Threat of the Fascist super villain Red Skull using the same formula Which has by some means become the basis for half the marvel universe.
This also blends well with more Marvel like Dr. Strange, Iron Fist and Blade.

Another factor to consider though is that DC would want this to interplay with their existing universe and Here I think we can play a bit with the old ones. Victor Savage and Ras Al Gaul both have extremely long lives and no doubt could have played important roles in earlier dynasties of China. Ras is I think Especially interesting for your Yaoguai as his name is more or less The Demon.
There is also Dr. Fate to consider if you wish the magic route and Wonder Woman although based on a more the Greek, is in the comics potentially as old as the Whole of Chinese History.

In any point what I see here is almost like a Jacky Chan Film I once saw where Ancient Chinese Vampires were awakening and Hong Kong kept the last Vampire hunters on the Pay roll with Jacky Chan along for comedy.

Yup, there are several great films that would serve as excellent basis for Chinese superhero stories. I'm not familiar with the Jackie Chan movie you mentioned, but Jet Li's Black Mask is my favorite Kungfu superhero-ish movie.

I found this article very interesting and spot on in its analysis:
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Yup, there are several great films that would serve as excellent basis for Chinese superhero stories. I'm not familiar with the Jackie Chan movie you mentioned, but Jet Li's Black Mask is my favorite Kungfu superhero-ish movie.

I found this article very interesting and spot on in its analysis:
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He's mostly just Cameo but hilarious cameo
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Yes, that's it. George Lucas already did it with Jedi. The Force is chi and they do super jumps and there are various abilities. They just have to modernize it. Fighting while jumping from rooftop to rooftop now becomes from skyscraper to skyscraper.

That's because Lucas was highly influenced by Kurosawa and has admitted it himself numerous times in interviews. If you ever seen The hidden fortress you will find a lot of similarities with SW. Basically he substituted samurai swords with light sabers and throw in a couple of aliens and starships.
Lucas became one of the richest man in the world and Kurosawa attempted suicide.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Okay Offically Gone Two Far now.
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APRIL 21, 2016 9:18am PT by Borys Kit

Hasbro Cinematic Universe Takes Shape With Michael Chabon, Brian K. Vaughan, Akiva Goldsman (Exclusive)
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Hasbro
The plan is for a universe featuring Hasbro’s G.I. Joe, Micronauts, Visionaries, M.A.S.K. (Mobile Armored Strike Kommand) and ROM brands.
Hasbro’s cinematic universe has assembled its writers room, with a Pulitzer Prize winner, an Eisner-winning comic book author and Marvel Studios scribes among those who will be clacking the keyboard.

Michael Chabon, who wrote the novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay and worked on Spider-Man 2; Brian K. Vaughan, the creator of seminal comic works Y: The Last Man and Saga and showrunner of Under the Dome; and Guardians of the Galaxy and Captain Marvel co-writer Nicole Perlman, will help develop a plan for the creation of an interconnected onscreen universe featuring Hasbro’s G.I. Joe, Micronauts, Visionaries, M.A.S.K. (Mobile Armored Strike Kommand) and ROM brands.

Also in the group are:

► Lindsey Beer, who was just hired to adapt Kingkiller Chronicle for Lionsgate
► Cheo Coker, showrunner of Marvel’s Netflix show Luke Cage
► John Francis Daley and Jonathan Goldstein, the comedy writing team who penned Spider-Man: Homecoming
► Joe Robert Cole (a writer on People vs. OJ Simpson who is also writing Black Panther for Marvel)
► Jeff Pinkner, who wrote the adaptation of Stephen King’s The Dark Tower)
► Nicole Riegel (writer behind the Blacklist script Dogfight)
► Geneva Robertson (one of the writers of new Tomb Raider movie project).

Akiva Goldsman, who won an Oscar for A Beautiful Mind, will oversee the writers room on behalf of Hasbro and Paramount as well as serving as executive producer for all of the films. He is already serving in a similar capacity for Hasbro’s Transformers writers room and the new session is meant to build on its successful fruits and established road map.

Allspark Pictures, Hasbro’s film label, will produce the films based on this cross-property universe. Hasbro’s chairman and CEO Brian Goldner and executive vice president and CCO Stephen Davis are serving as producers. Josh Feldman, head of Hasbro’s storytelling, will co-exec produce.

The collective’s first meeting will be held Monday on the Paramount lot. Paramount is integrally involved with Hasbro’s cinematic universe and has been the company’s partner on the $3.8 billion grossing Transformersfranchise as well as the G.I Joe movies.

Also on hand for the writers room will be Hasbro artists to help up draw up concepts and characters.

The room is diverse, with a strong concentration of black and women writers, something that is unusual not only in fanboy genre spheres but even in Hollywood circles, in which tentpoles tend to be written by a small circle of scribes.

“We first and foremost put together a list of writers who we wanted to be in business with and could be the world-builders that we needed, said Davis. “But we want to be sure that in the room we have diverse perspectives, diverse backgrounds and diverse experiences.”

For example, the properties involved in the universe, such as G.I. Joe and M.A.S.K., have traditionally skewed towards the male segment, but Hasbro wants to broaden the focus on the movies, to make them more inclusive. It’s a theme that already exists in the brands, Davis said.

“Female empowerment is a central theme through a lot of these properties and one of the reasons we wanted diverse voices,” he said.

Said Paramount Pictures chairman and CEO Brad Grey: "Bringing together a writers room of this caliber is a bold step for our partnership, and one that we believe is critical for building these brands into new, successful franchises for the future.”
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We already have the hanna Barbera Cinimatic universe comming I mean Zoinks... Hehe....
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SCOOBY-DOO WILL LAUNCH HANNA-BARBERA CINEMATIC UNIVERSE

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ON APRIL 13, 2016
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Thanks to the massive success of
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over the past decade, having a shared cinematic universe is something every major movie studio wants in on these days. Universal is doing their best to launch a connected movie universe with their monster properties–something they actually did very successfully back in the ’40s–and Paramount is planning a
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/
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shared universe.

Of course, Warner Brothers finally just launched their
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with
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to mixed results, but hey–so far they’re the only other non-Marvel studio that has actually accomplished doing this and has done more than just talk about it, so credit where credit is due.

But besides the DC heroes, Warner Brothers has another cinematic universe they’re looking to launch soon, this time revolving around the animated
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properties they own. The first one out of the gate will be the animated reboot of
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, titled S.C.O.O.B. (And before you ask, I have no idea what the acronym stands for. Guesses are welcome).

All of this, including the titles of the Scooby-Doo reboot, was announced at
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this week. According to the folks at
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, during the Warners animation sizzle reel, it was announced that S.C.O.O.B would be “our first shot at unlocking the whole Hanna-Barbera Universe.”

There is no shortage of iconic Hanna-Barbera properties they can use either, with shows like
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, The Jetsons, Yogi Bear,
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and dozens more, all household names. Although how they could all be connected in one universe seems like a stretch, they did do it back in the seventies with Wacky Races, so anything is possible. Obviously, this all rests on the Scooby-Dooanimated movie being a hit, and we won’t know that until S.C.O.O.B. hits theaters on September 21, 2018.

Are you down for yet another cinematic universe hitting theaters? Let us know your thoughts in the comments below.
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I suppose next will be the Donald Paul Bellisario Cinematic Universe... Actually I would watch that. Airwolf in 2020, Big Hawaii and Magnum PI in 2021, Quantum Leap in 2022, Tequila and Bonetti JAG/NCIS/First monday 2023 With a massive team up compilation film in 2024...
 

vesicles

Colonel
A good analysis, and this is where the Wuxia tradition would come in handy. The "Xia" were people with extraordinary martial skills, and who used those skills to help the oppressed. There are no contemporary Wuxia stories because, as you have noted, their existence itself is a condemnation of the authorities. Some of the earliest Wuxia stories were written in Ming dynasty but set in earlier dynasties.

Nevertheless, if one were to produce a Chinese superhero culture, this is where they should start.

The Xia derived their powers from their martial skills, which sometimes allowed them to perform superhuman feats. They were rebels bound by a code of honor. Wealth and power in the mundane political structure meant nothing to them. Instead, they lived in a world of their own, the Jianghu, and had their own forms of organization and structure. Their reputation was more important than their very lives.

I think you confuse "Xia" with "Xia dao". Xia means hero (someone who act strictly by the code of honor), whereas Xia dao is hero bandit (someone who is more like Robin Hood). Xia is not a rebel. He should be more like a private citizen whose goal is to help people.

In fact, one of the key principles of a Xia is his loyalty to the country and government. Object of the loyalty could be the current government, or the previous government (if the timeline of the story is set at the beginning of a new dynasty). This is especially the case when the new dynasty is Qing or Yuan (foreigners occupying China). So one simple and straightforward rule of thumb: the Xia must be loyal to China and Chinese government.

In fact, a very famous phrase epitomizes this notion: a great Xia always aims to help his country and his people. Many Xia stories center on their main Xia characters helping the government. The famous Jin Yong novels, such as the Condor Heroes and the sequel (the condor couple), as well as the eight heaven dragon (my bad translation). heroes in these stories all help the government and fight for the government. Some of them even become government officials and get titles (the duke of mount deers).

In fact, most novels written in ancient times have their Xia's on the same side with the government and even working for the government. One example: 3 Xia and 5 Yi (3 heroes and 5 loyal brothers) describe superheroes helping the government. Note that this novel was written in the Ming dynasty. In this novel, almost all the heroes and good guys officially work for the government. One of the Xia's is a personal guard of the supreme judge (Bao Zhen) of the Song Dynasty. This superhero carries an official rank and a nick name given by the emperor. The sequel, 7 Xia and 5 younger Yi, has a younger generation of superheroes also working for the government. These Xia's are all official government employees and all have official titles. The sequel actually talks about how the older generation retires from their government jobs and goes back home while their sons take over these jobs. Essentially, they are the ancient Chinese equivalent of SWAT teams and carry out special ops for the government.

Another example would be "the legend of Tong Lin". The main hero, Tong Lin, is the personal guard of Yong Zheng who is the 4th emperor of the Qing dynasty. Throughout the novel, Tong Lin's main job is to protect Yong Zheng and help him become the crown prince and eventually the emperor.

Just like American superheroes, Chinese superheroes aim to help the people. Many times, that means working with or for the government, like Captain America. And sometimes, that means going up against corrupted officials (like Batman). The same can also be said of Chinese superheroes. The key is helping the people and being the symbol of good.

I think the reason that China does not have many superheroes stories now is that people were not allowed to be creative during the cultural revolution. Then it takes time for people to recover from such disaster. Also, the current China has not yet caught up with the West. So there is little to be proud of. So people naturally want to think back the good ole days in ancient times when China was the absolute dominant power. Thus many movies, tv series and novels on the topic of ancient Chinese Xia.

Again, Xia does not mean rebel. They are simply the symbol of good and righteousness. They will do whatever needed to help the common people. This could mean working with the government against evil foreigners, or clean up local corrupted officials. Even in the cases of Xia up against evil officials, they are almost always described as being loyal to the emperor and the country. No different from what American superheroes do.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
I think you confuse "Xia" with "Xia dao". Xia means hero (someone who act strictly by the code of honor), whereas Xia dao is hero bandit (someone who is more like Robin Hood). Xia is not a rebel. He should be more like a private citizen whose goal is to help people.

In fact, one of the key principles of a Xia is his loyalty to the country and government. Object of the loyalty could be the current government, or the previous government (if the timeline of the story is set at the beginning of a new dynasty). This is especially the case when the new dynasty is Qing or Yuan (foreigners occupying China). So one simple and straightforward rule of thumb: the Xia must be loyal to China and Chinese government.

In fact, a very famous phrase epitomizes this notion: a great Xia always aims to help his country and his people. Many Xia stories center on their main Xia characters helping the government. The famous Jin Yong novels, such as the Condor Heroes and the sequel (the condor couple), as well as the eight heaven dragon (my bad translation). heroes in these stories all help the government and fight for the government. Some of them even become government officials and get titles (the duke of mount deers).

In fact, most novels written in ancient times have their Xia's on the same side with the government and even working for the government. One example: 3 Xia and 5 Yi (3 heroes and 5 loyal brothers) describe superheroes helping the government. Note that this novel was written in the Ming dynasty. In this novel, almost all the heroes and good guys officially work for the government. One of the Xia's is a personal guard of the supreme judge (Bao Zhen) of the Song Dynasty. This superhero carries an official rank and a nick name given by the emperor. The sequel, 7 Xia and 5 younger Yi, has a younger generation of superheroes also working for the government. These Xia's are all official government employees and all have official titles. The sequel actually talks about how the older generation retires from their government jobs and goes back home while their sons take over these jobs. Essentially, they are the ancient Chinese equivalent of SWAT teams and carry out special ops for the government.

Another example would be "the legend of Tong Lin". The main hero, Tong Lin, is the personal guard of Yong Zheng who is the 4th emperor of the Qing dynasty. Throughout the novel, Tong Lin's main job is to protect Yong Zheng and help him become the crown prince and eventually the emperor.

Just like American superheroes, Chinese superheroes aim to help the people. Many times, that means working with or for the government, like Captain America. And sometimes, that means going up against corrupted officials (like Batman). The same can also be said of Chinese superheroes. The key is helping the people and being the symbol of good.

I think the reason that China does not have many superheroes stories now is that people were not allowed to be creative during the cultural revolution. Then it takes time for people to recover from such disaster. Also, the current China has not yet caught up with the West. So there is little to be proud of. So people naturally want to think back the good ole days in ancient times when China was the absolute dominant power. Thus many movies, tv series and novels on the topic of ancient Chinese Xia.

Again, Xia does not mean rebel. They are simply the symbol of good and righteousness. They will do whatever needed to help the common people. This could mean working with the government against evil foreigners, or clean up local corrupted officials. Even in the cases of Xia up against evil officials, they are almost always described as being loyal to the emperor and the country. No different from what American superheroes do.

You misunderstand. I am not using the term "rebel" as in "rebellion against the government", but rather as a character archetype, someone who rejects traditional norms.

If you get down to it, all Xia are rebels in this sense. They exist outside of mundane society. "Civilian" laws mean nothing to them. They settle conflicts through their own code of honor.

Even Guo Jing, who said that the greatest purpose of Xia is to serve the country and the people, operated outside the bounds of the Song government. His authority did not come from the Emperor, but from the people who regarded him as a great hero. The official leader of the city of Xiangyang is portrayed as a coward, and Guo Jing had to step in and take over the defense of the city himself.

It's been a while since I've read 3 Xia 5 Yi, but IIRC, only Zhan Zhao was ever officially given a title by the Emperor. The 5 Yi definitely existed outside of the normal social structure. I'm not familiar with "Tong Lin", but the story of Nie Yinniang (聂隐娘) is definitely a major influence on modern Wuxia, and the protagonist there is an assassin.

Even those Xia who worked and were loyal to their government were still outsiders. They did not partake in the same game of politics as their peers, and kept to their own code of honor in all matters.
 
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