South East Asia Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

kwaigonegin said:

Last but not least these ships do serve a useful operational purpose. While it can't go against a modern frigate, it can serve as deterence to fishing boats, spy ships, patrol crafts and is certainly useful for the Filipino navy to use near the islands in SCS for observation etc.

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Exactly.

Which make it clear that they are not useless at all.

Which also means that they are far from "worse than useless," Blackstone.

They are not being given to the Philippines to confront China. much less major Chinese surface combatants.

The Philippines have many uses and operational needs outside of those over-ambitious, impossible goals in any case. Anyone with even a modicum of sense knows this...including the Philippine naval planners and their leaders.

To project that they would ever attempt to use a Hamilton class to directly confront any major PLAN naval force is simply rhetoric that projects improper and undeserved maleficence on the Philippines IMHO..

As it is, for their own operational needs, the Philippines will make good use of these vessels for their needs.

That is my point...and I am stickin' to it.

Jeff Head said:

Exactly.

Which make it clear that they are not useless at all.

Which also means that they are far from "worse than useless," Blackstone.

They are not being given to the Philippines to confront China. much less major Chinese surface combatants.

The Philippines have many uses and operational needs outside of those over-ambitious, impossible goals in any case. Anyone with even a modicum of sense knows this...including the Philippine naval planners and their leaders.

To project that they would ever attempt to use a Hamilton class to directly confront any major PLAN naval force is simply rhetoric that projects improper and undeserved maleficence on the Philippines IMHO..

As it is, for their own operational needs, the Philippines will make good use of these vessels for their needs.

That is my point...and I am stickin' to it.

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I hear you Jeff, and I have a completely different take on the aid Washington gave Manila;

1. Symbolically, it's weak sauce. There's nothing there to comfort sovereignty claimants in any meaningful way
2. Practically, it will do absolutely nothing to moderate Beijing's actions. Nay, nada, zilch
3. Strategically, Beijing could accuse Washington of meddling in sovereignty disputes and use it as an excuse to further militarize their new artificial islands
4. Geopolitically, ASEAN's silence is deafening, and it shows most of them want no part of provoking China
5. Inside the US, Obama is running against public sentiments, as polls show Americans don't care about specs of rocks in the SCS, and risking WW3 to enforce Pax Americana would go over like a turd in a punchbowl
   
6. Inside China, nationalism would be even stronger against perceived Yankee aggressions and limit the CCP's room to maneuver and compromise

Therefore, I stand by my statement Washington's ham-fisted aid to Manila is worse than useless, because it does practically nothing to improve the region's security, but may cause China to up the ante in the SCS.

Jeff Head said:

Exactly.

Which make it clear that they are not useless at all.

Which also means that they are far from "worse than useless," Blackstone.

They are not being given to the Philippines to confront China. much less major Chinese surface combatants.

The Philippines have many uses and operational needs outside of those over-ambitious, impossible goals in any case. Anyone with even a modicum of sense knows this...including the Philippine naval planners and their leaders.

To project that they would ever attempt to use a Hamilton class to directly confront any major PLAN naval force is simply rhetoric that projects improper and undeserved maleficence on the Philippines IMHO..

As it is, for their own operational needs, the Philippines will make good use of these vessels for their needs.

That is my point...and I am stickin' to it.

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Jeff, I don't think Blackstone is necessarily insinuating that the Philippines would seek to confront the Chinese Navy with ex-Hamiltons per se... and I don't think that is why he's calling them "worse than useless"... rather I think he is considering it in a larger geopolitical sense as to whether the Philippines Navy might be more embolded to tangle with China's Coast Guard or possibly fishing vessels with their increase in capability.

In other words, I think he's casting doubt as to the geopolitical sensibility of the high brass of the Philippines govt and military and whether the new capability might incline them confront China (not the Chinese Navy directly) in a way which might draw the US into a potential contingency.

I personally like to think the Philippines govt and military would remain quite professional and will not significantly "escalate" any dispute with any other country simply by virtue of having a few more ex-Hamiltons.... but it is this subject which I think Blackstone was addressing, not that the Philippines Navy would seek to directly confront the Chinese Navy simply because they have a few more ex-Hamiltons.

Overall, I think trying to bring in excessively strategic geopolitical assessments of the ex-Hamilton cutters transfer in this thread is probably a bit too OT

Blackstone said:

I hear you Jeff, and I have a completely different take on the aid Washington gave Manila;

1. Symbolically, it's weak sauce. There's nothing there to comfort sovereignty claimants in any meaningful way
2. Practically, it will do absolutely nothing to moderate Beijing's actions. Nay, nada, zilch
3. Strategically, Beijing could accuse Washington of meddling in sovereignty disputes and use it as an excuse to further militarize their new artificial islands
4. Geopolitically, ASEAN's silence is deafening, and it shows most of them want no part of provoking China
5. Inside the US, Obama is running against public sentiments, as polls show Americans don't care about specs of rocks in the SCS, and risking WW3 to enforce Pax Americana would go over like a turd in a punchbowl
   
6. Inside China, nationalism would be even stronger against perceived Yankee aggressions and limit the CCP's room to maneuver and compromise

Therefore, I stand by my statement Washington's ham-fisted aid to Manila is worse than useless, because it does practically nothing to improve the region's security, but may cause China to up the ante in the SCS.

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Ham fisted? Really?

Trying to have things two ways here Blackstone. It cannot be "useless," or "worse than uselss," on one hand, and US "ham fisted" assistance to the Philippines on the other.

You are making this statements based on your interpretation of those vessels and what they mean towards a US/China empasse in the SCS..

Of course the Hamilton cutters do not/will not:

1. Moderate Beijing's actions in the SCS. The major work China is doing on its islands is not an issue with the Philippines, nor should it be. Other actions involving any PLAN vessels are not something these ships are meant to handle.

2. Have anything to do with public sentiment about Obama and China in the SCS. These are cutters that will help an ally with many other operational issues the Philippines have.

3. Have any impact or relevance on Chinese nationalism against perceived Yankee aggressions and limit the CCP's room to maneuver and compromise.

Again, you cannot have it both ways and claim on one hand the vessels oare uselsss, and then on the other claim that the Chinese public will fear them and see them as a US attempt to hem the Chinese in.

Anyhow, this has gone far enough...too far really.

IMHO, you are looking at these vessels through a very distorted lens that gauges everything against your perceived relevance to the US/China issues in the SCS.

Of course these vessels are irrelevant to that.

But that's not why they are there.

They will provide additional operational capabilities to the Philippine Navy outside of any direct confrontation with the Chinese. In that vein the news about the Philippines getting them is good information and input to this thread.

The SCS stuff belongs on the SCS threads.

Alrighty Jeff, we'll just have to agree to see it from different angles.

Blackstone said:

Alrighty Jeff, we'll just have to agree to see it from different angles.

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I can do that...sounds like a plan.

Moving on then. Vietnam is building u a very credible and serious naval force.

They will have four modern Gephard Frigates, ten of the new Molnya (an advanced Tarantul class) missile boats with 16 ASMs each, and ultimately six new Kilo subs.

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Sputnik said:

Director of Zelenodolsk shipbuilding plant said that Russia is ready to equip the Gepard-class 3.9 frigates for Vietnam with Club-class cruise missile systems.

Russia is ready to equip the Gepard-class 3.9 frigates for Vietnam with Club-class cruise missile systems, the director of Zelenodolsk shipbuilding plant said Monday.

"If the Vietnamese partners want to install Club missiles on the frigates, we are ready to provide them with these weapons," Sergei Rudenko told RIA Novosti.

At present, Gepard-class frigates are equipped with Russian Uran anti-ship missiles.

Club missiles are designed for warships to hit both surface and ground targets.

Gepard-class 3.9 frigates are an export version of Project 11661 guard vessels, built in the Russian Republic of Tatarstan.

In 2011, Russia delivered two Gepard 3.9 frigates to Vietnam. Two others are currently in the process of being modernized at the Zelenodolsk shipyard.

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Vietnam Navy Gephard Class FFG



Vietnam Navy Molnya Class Missile Corvette



Vietnam Navy Kilo SSKs

Jeff Head said:

They have little money, so they have to depend on such offerings and are trying to make the best of them.

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Which is why if they pursue the plan to purchase two Incheon class frigates, it's not the best way to be spending a limited budget. Rather, the amount of money for two new Incheons could probably buy them a dozen Gumdoksuri class patrol vessels instead. Maybe even negotiate for the majority of them to be locally built.

There are ways to get a better bang for the buck, like folding the coast guard into the navy. Even Australia does not have an official CG, the duties are covered by their navy.

kwaigonegin said:

I seriously doubt they will be fitted with anything more than guns though even though they are wired to launch ASMs.

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I think only the Mellon is wired for ASM as it was the only unit tested with Harpoons for proof of capability.

Blackstone said:

I don't know about the second vessel, but whatever it is, it'd probably be equally useless.

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So it will be USCGC Boutwell and one oceanographic vessel, the R/V Melville. Both are late 60s vessels and the latter has zero armament in present form.

Malysian AF almost all aicrafts !