China's SCS Strategy Thread

One day soon it will be 056s, but those boats are still new and their crews new to them. For operational deployment, you want to make sure the crews are fully familiar with the equipment, and it may be a few years more before the 056s are at that point.

You have to remember just how new these ships are, and how many the PLAN are putting into service in a very short time.

There may well be many experienced crews ready for operational deployment now, but I think the PLAN would rather second them to newer crews or send them back to the academy as instructors to aid and speed up induction of the other 056s rather then send them out to play bumper cars with the Vietnamese.

That brings up one of the reasons why older 053s are used instead of newer 054As. Down in the SCS, the rules of the game are different, rougher and dirtier, where a bit of ship bumping happens from time to time.

The PLAN has thus far wisely left that sort of thing to the Coast Guard, but it is still a possibility in last straw situations and could be useful as it gives the captains an option to express extreme dissatisfaction and a way to prevent another ship from going somewhere or doing something just short of engaging said ship with direct fire. But I doubt the PLAN would want the paint jobs of their brand new ships scratched by such action, so its better to let older boats take the duties that might put them in that sort or situation.

The other reasons for using older ships would be that there isn't a lot more the old 53s could do well. They are still on the roster, but are too old and limited to be worth upgrading, so they might as well be used for the more low profile and low risk missions that doesn't require state of the art capabilities.

The local environment should also be considered, as there are a lot of shallow water areas, where a small ship could easily go but a bigger ship with a deeper draft like the 054A might not want to get too close to.

antiterror13 said:

Why didn't China send 056 or even 054A ?

I wouldn't be surprise if one Chinese subs (Song or Yuan) is already there

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I am not saying that a 053 would lose, but think about it this way, if both are within close visual range and a bump occurs, any fire control will be accurate, even old eyeballs.

But, what if Vietnam sinks a Chinese ship first? cause belli for a full navel intervention?

so technically, China can send ocean going patrol boats, a 062 would have suffice

Lezt said:

I am not saying that a 053 would lose, but think about it this way, if both are within close visual range and a bump occurs, any fire control will be accurate, even old eyeballs.

But, what if Vietnam sinks a Chinese ship first? cause belli for a full navel intervention?

so technically, China can send ocean going patrol boats, a 062 would have suffice

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No, the survivor gets to tell the story.

The 053 is not top of the line, but they are not sitting ducks either, and with the 056, the survivability would be further increased.

It is far better to deter an attack rather than tempt the enemy into making one and then dealing with the aftermath (unless you want to engineer the pretext for a war, which clearly China isn't doing). Failing that, it is infinitely better to survive an attack and then decide on the reprisal rather than loose a ship and most of the crew to a sucker punk first blow.

Having a ship with full sensor and/or audio/video recordings of the events would present a far more compelling case for reprisal attacks than just the say so for a few surviving sailors who might not have been working in the CIC or anywhere else that might have given them a full understanding of what happened during the engagement.

plawolf said:

No, the survivor gets to tell the story.

The 053 is not top of the line, but they are not sitting ducks either, and with the 056, the survivability would be further increased.

It is far better to deter an attack rather than tempt the enemy into making one and then dealing with the aftermath (unless you want to engineer the pretext for a war, which clearly China isn't doing). Failing that, it is infinitely better to survive an attack and then decide on the reprisal rather than loose a ship and most of the crew to a sucker punk first blow.

Having a ship with full sensor and/or audio/video recordings of the events would present a far more compelling case for reprisal attacks than just the say so for a few surviving sailors who might not have been working in the CIC or anywhere else that might have given them a full understanding of what happened during the engagement.

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Would a 056 really be more survivable than a 053 variant though? It probably would in a missile engagement but in a surprise gunfight the 056 is a smaller ship with fewer guns.

PanAsian said:

Would a 056 really be more survivable than a 053 variant though? It probably would in a missile engagement but in a surprise gunfight the 056 is a smaller ship with fewer guns.

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Well it should be, as such situations was pretty much one of the primary reasons it was designed and built for.

The 056 might have fewer guns compared to an 053, but those are newer guns with all the benefits that entails, and don't forget about its torpedoe complement, which will make it an altogether more dangerous oppent close in.

In addition, being smaller makes it a smaller, harder target to hit. The quality of design and construction should also be better, so the smaller 056 may be able to take more hits.

antiterror13 said:

Why didn't China send 056 or even 054A ?

I wouldn't be surprise if one Chinese subs (Song or Yuan) is already there

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t2contra said:

Probably to not appear too aggressive. 053s are old and several have been retired. To shoot and damage is to declare war.

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plawolf said:

There may well be many experienced crews ready for operational deployment now, but I think the PLAN would rather second them to newer crews or send them back to the academy as instructors to aid and speed up induction of the other 056s rather then send them out to play bumper cars with the Vietnamese.

That brings up one of the reasons why older 053s are used instead of newer 054As. Down in the SCS, the rules of the game are different, rougher and dirtier, where a bit of ship bumping happens from time to time.

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I would say it probably is just chance. If one reviews whatever pics we have on the forum of Chinese naval ships providing guard duty to the construction activity, they all were second string units, 053Xs. It's a logical decision to put the 053Xs into some role of good use and this role is it. 537 is from the North Sea Fleet if my understanding is correct, so the decision to send in 537 is not something one can just decide on a whim. It was probably one of the units on scheduled patrol.

I don't believe it was anything of a tense standoff, more like a check to say "we're monitoring you too". Because if the article is right, both Gepards were there so even sending in one 056 would be a lopsided order of battle.

I seriously doubt the Vietnamese navy would dare doing anything ... and the Gephard is new as well .....

plawolf said:

No, the survivor gets to tell the story.

The 053 is not top of the line, but they are not sitting ducks either, and with the 056, the survivability would be further increased.

It is far better to deter an attack rather than tempt the enemy into making one and then dealing with the aftermath (unless you want to engineer the pretext for a war, which clearly China isn't doing). Failing that, it is infinitely better to survive an attack and then decide on the reprisal rather than loose a ship and most of the crew to a sucker punk first blow.

Having a ship with full sensor and/or audio/video recordings of the events would present a far more compelling case for reprisal attacks than just the say so for a few surviving sailors who might not have been working in the CIC or anywhere else that might have given them a full understanding of what happened during the engagement.

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Well, it depends on which survivor, the victor gets to write history. Sure, China is not trying to start a war, nor do they need to actively avoid it.

Sending a 056, with its sensor suite in peace time operation; would not fare better than having a 053 or even a coast guard cutter had the Gephard intended to fire first. - and I am pretty sure that no one is engaging their military wavelengths to reduce on future enemy ELINT.

Especially since both are in close visual range, a few shots from the 76mm will sink a frigate, especially when it is pounding away at 120 rounds per minute. i.e. 4 rounds will land within 2 seconds, i doubt any crew no matter how well trained can response to that in any meaningful way; regardless of ship class.

Lezt said:

Well, it depends on which survivor, the victor gets to write history. Sure, China is not trying to start a war, nor do they need to actively avoid it.

Sending a 056, with its sensor suite in peace time operation; would not fare better than having a 053 or even a coast guard cutter had the Gephard intended to fire first. - and I am pretty sure that no one is engaging their military wavelengths to reduce on future enemy ELINT.

Especially since both are in close visual range, a few shots from the 76mm will sink a frigate, especially when it is pounding away at 120 rounds per minute. i.e. 4 rounds will land within 2 seconds, i doubt any crew no matter how well trained can response to that in any meaningful way; regardless of ship class.

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"Start a war" reminds me something. I had watched an UNABRIDGED live-shooting video about the conflict in 1988. Chinese and Vietnam naval personnels were in confrontation, all in a sudden a gunfire came out and PLAN had one man down. Then other Chinese soldiers shouted "they open fire!" while dragging the wounded back. I replayed it again and again to get more detail, and I felt not only intensity and astonishment from their voice, they were also some sort of···delighted. It was kind of like "oh thank the Almighty finally they give us a perfect excuse to unleash our power···".

I type "UNABRIDGED" in capital because I had viewed an “edited” version in Youtube. It was filled with miserable scenes how Chinese coldbloodedly tore up Vietnam soldiers with heavy fire, and of course all comments were condemning China's expantionism, hegemony, psychopath commies, dictatorship,tyranny, and soon tibet&ETM&FLK···all jumped out finally the they made the conclusion that China should be evicted (well I shouldn't had expected anything else).

The big guy smashs a dwarf directly into the ground not means he is a bully. There is a possiblity that the dwarf for a hell-know reason bite the giant's calf.

Lezt said:

Well, it depends on which survivor, the victor gets to write history. Sure, China is not trying to start a war, nor do they need to actively avoid it.

Sending a 056, with its sensor suite in peace time operation; would not fare better than having a 053 or even a coast guard cutter had the Gephard intended to fire first. - and I am pretty sure that no one is engaging their military wavelengths to reduce on future enemy ELINT.

Especially since both are in close visual range, a few shots from the 76mm will sink a frigate, especially when it is pounding away at 120 rounds per minute. i.e. 4 rounds will land within 2 seconds, i doubt any crew no matter how well trained can response to that in any meaningful way; regardless of ship class.

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It makes sense to give the obsolete 053's something meaningful to do where if things go south the PLAN won't be losing a particularly valuable asset. It also communicates that China is not looking to start a war since they would most likely lose their units in the immediate vicinity.

Along the same lines, I have felt that the 056 is underarmed but now I see how it fits into PLAN strategy/tactics. No point in having a better equipped thereby more expensive OPV with more crew which would most likely be lost to an aggressor's surprise attack.