South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

climax

New Member
So you're saying China's whole plan all along was to dominate the SCS via its claimed territorial boundary?
That's not impossible, because after all we should remember that this is a territorial dispute after all, however if you're specifically wanting to look at who started tensions unfortunately you will have to compare who started

reclamation first.

That said, China's current round of reclamation isn't necessarily just a response to that of other SCS states, but rather it reflects its own interests and perceived capabilities of the present. However if you're trying to pin the blame on

China for increasing tensions by reclaiming islands it is pretty hypocritical to ignore what other states in the region have also done in their own claimed islands in the past.
This is a territorial dispute after all, and one can hardly fault China for doing more expansive reclamation than other states have done given it has the ability to.
If other countries were not willing to compromise and instead actually expanded their holdings or expanded reclamation, then that basically throws any good intentions out of the window anyway.

Eventually I suspect the long term goal is for China to dominate the SCS and then negotiate a complete resolution to the territorial disputes from a position of power.
I was very specific in the timeline that I commented on. Every ASEAN gathering, the Philippines and Vietnam led the charge on wanting the organization to come out with some

harsh statement against China. The actual and more subdued statements always refer back to the ideals within the code of conduct. A lot of examples you listed predate the code of conduct. When looking from 2002 onwards, we

have proof that Vietnam was reclaiming land before China started. So in this most provocative activity (compared to building huts, satellite dishes, and greenhouses), China wouldn't be the initiator. What principle is Vietnam relying

on to call out China for not adhering to the ideals in the code if it was actually committing the same violations? Your explanation is that it's always been ongoing but that means it's been ongoing with Vietnam too. So saying the

code was trashed by China doesn't hold. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

In the case of land reclamation, I'm certain China had drafted plans for it but I do believe with limited sized platforms and Vietnam just chugging away at slowly reclaiming with zero scrutiny from other parties, it was a threshold

crossed that prompted response and they opted to just do everything at once because with this action, there is no going back.

I tried to don't blame anything in here, it's mostly useless to saying that on here.

The disputed has hardest part: China's claim, which was not only Spratly and Paracel, but also 90% of SCS, but no detail to explain what is it and what come along with it.

You can defend for China's building work by consider the other do the same, but you forget many things else.
And with many move and actions from China, after use military forces (or law-enforcement armed ships) to take Islands/reef, "fishing ban", demand or threaten oil company like BP, Total ... to retreat from the deal with Vietnam, even cut the cable of Vietnamese exploration vessel (Binh Minh 02's case), chase out and ram on fishing ships ...

China was offensive side, not only by building job, but by many other moves.

Of course, you can say Vietnam do the same in oil rig 981 case, but 981 was in disputed area, near Paracel, inside where was considered Vietnamese EEZ.
BinhMinh 02's case was ...same, it's only 43nm from Cồn Cỏ Islands of Vietnam, but inside China's 9-10-11-dash-lines map.


Did you see the problem !?

China's claim was from a map at first, not from the fact, so they made it, move after move, build and made de facto. Remember, before this, though China claim is big and biggest in SCS, but their positions in Spatly was weak, small outpost in middle vast sea.

When you talking about land reclamation, and you said "China had drafted plans for it", so there was not because any action from other parties, look back at China's move, you will sure about it, which is thing that China must to do.

How could you give order like "fishing ban" which was announce in yesterday 16/05/2015 or any action related to "right of sovereignty" when you're not resource and power to do it !?

You saying that Vietnam, Fillipinos or Malaysia (and seem like China alway forget about Malay in their complain) was building first, but of course we do it first, because at before 1988, China's nowhere in Spratly.
And China was building from water, while other side like Vietnam, Taiwan, Malay, Fillippines hold all big rock and Islands.
From wooden hut on water, to big concrete outpost and building, expand and improve more and more like any other, but it's still structures on reef under water, all of China's positions.

The other side like Vietnam, Malaysia, Filippines building too, but they did not demand like China, not made moves like China, and sure, not building like China.

At before China reclamation on Spratly, why did nobody complain anything !?
Because they're accepted the fact, you can improve your outpost, but don't change De facto, there's compromise.
Most Chinese forget Paracel was a disputed also, which was reclaiming non-stop by China.

So there was not provocative activity or hypocrite from Vietnam or other party.
China Govt was accused because they tried to change de facto, made reef under wanter become big Islands, this will give China a advantge in bilaterally way negotiation.

xubi_khongquanphilippine_zlhx.jpg

Subi reef before reclamation, a reef under water.

And there, China's intention: Bilaterally way, if we went to that way, when China finished their reclamation, with all facilities and logistic support, NEW BIG ISLANDS, not a reef under water, China has more power to control in the fact, so other parties must to accept new de facto.
But there's still someone saying it shall be solve by bilaterally way, which nobody want it but China.

And don't try to be stupid, at before 2010, did China had enough resource and power to do this kind of reclamation !?
China Govt planned it, and when time has came, do it.

P/S: I want to repost my edited post to make more clear my opinion, please detele my early post if you can, Mod.
 
Last edited:

Equation

Lieutenant General
I tried to don't blame anything in here, it's mostly useless to saying that on here.

The disputed has hardest part: China's claim, which was not only Spratly and Paracel, but also 90% of SCS, but no detail to explain what is it and what come along with it.

You can defend for China's building work by consider the other do the same, but you forget many things else.
And with many move and actions from China, after use military forces (or law-enforcement armed ships) to take Islands/reef, "fishing ban", demand or threaten oil company like BP, Total ... to retreat from the deal with Vietnam, even cut the cable of Vietnamese exploration vessel (Binh Minh 02's case), chase out and ram on fishing ships ...

China was offensive side, not only by building job, but by many other moves.

Of course, you can say Vietnam do the same in oil rig 981 case, but 981 was in disputed area, near Paracel, inside where was considered Vietnamese EEZ.
BinhMinh 02's case was ...same, it's only 43nm from Cồn Cỏ Islands of Vietnam, but inside China's 9-10-11-dash-lines map.


Did you see the problem !?

China's claim was from a map at first, not from the fact, so they made it, move after move, build and made de facto. Remember, before this, though China claim is big and biggest in SCS, but their positions in Spatly was weak, small outpost in middle vast sea.

When you talking about land reclamation, and you said "China had drafted plans for it", so there was not because any action from other parties, look back at China's move, you will sure about it, which is thing that China must to do.

How could you give order like "fishing ban" which was announce in yesterday 16/05/2015 or any action related to "right of sovereignty" when you're not resource and power to do it !?

You saying that Vietnam, Fillipinos or Malaysia (and seem like China alway forget about Malay in their complain) was building first, but of course we do it first, because at before 1988, China's nowhere in Spratly.
And China was building from water, while other side like Vietnam, Taiwan, Malay, Fillippines hold all big rock and Islands.
From wooden hut on water, to big concrete outpost and building, expand and improve more and more like any other, but it's still structures on reef under water, all of China's positions.

The other side like Vietnam, Malaysia, Filippines building too, but they did not demand like China, not made moves like China, and sure, not building like China.

At before China reclamation on Spratly, why did nobody complain anything !?
Because they're accepted the fact, you can improve your outpost, but don't change De facto, there's compromise.
Most Chinese forget Paracel was a disputed also, which was reclaiming non-stop by China.

So there was not provocative activity or hypocrite from Vietnam or other party.
China Govt was accused because they tried to change de facto, made reef under wanter become big Islands, this will give China a advantge in bilaterally way negotiation.

xubi_khongquanphilippine_zlhx.jpg

Subi reef before reclamation, a reef under water.

And there, China's intention: Bilaterally way, if we went to that way, when China finished their reclamation, with all facilities and logistic support, NEW BIG ISLANDS, not a reef under water, China has more power to control in the fact, so other parties must to accept new de facto.
But there's still someone saying it shall be solve by bilaterally way, which nobody want it but China.

And don't try to be stupid, at before 2010, did China had enough resource and power to do this kind of reclamation !?
China Govt planned it, and when time has came, do it.

P/S: I want to repost my edited post to make more clear my opinion, please detele my early post if you can, Mod.

Don't get mad at China for it's reclamation work. China is not stopping other claimants from doing the same thing. There is NO universal rule on the SCS as to how much or what size a reclamation work should in the first place.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
You don't understand, even ASEAN raise their voice about reclamation, now.
Because China changed de facto, which was agreed and compromise from 2002.
Read my post above.



It's not same.
At before, Vietnamese, Filippines, Malaysia were building on islands, it's still Islands, but China made NEW ISLANDS.
We know it violated what was compromise, DOC, COC ... China changed de facto in Spratly.

P/S: I hated new edit tool, can't change your post after 10 min

Climax, with all due respect, you have already admitted China has already changed de facto status in SCS. Would Vietnam be able to do the same thing in SCS ? Maybe, but not likely. You may want to play it off China against US and Japan in SCS, harp on Vietnam's solid claim on SCS, whatever you may choose, won't change the fact that it is what it is, China has made islands in SCS.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
@ climax: you'll have to define what you mean by "new islands" and list the particular reclamations which you think are new islands rather than mere expansions of previous islands.

But that's merely a detail.

The larger issue you seem to have is that you think China has changed the status quo by its reclamation effort, and that China's reclamation effort is not a proportional response to the reclamation efforts made by other nations in the region.
Which leads to the question -- why should China's response be "proportional"? This is a territorial dispute, and the other claimants in the dispute have also not exactly been forthcoming and honest and have reclaimed territory, effectively underwriting "goodwill" out of the matter, so why should China not use its industrial expertise and larger economy to facilitate and support its claim on this matter.

Because the way I read your position makes it sound like China should have deliberately kept its reclamation efforts small like the other nations, but that's like saying larger and richer countries should have a smaller military akin to the countries of the rest of the world -- sure they might be aggravating tensions with other competitors by having a massively more powerful military, but it's also well within their rights to develop that capability.
In the same way, reclamation from other countries and continued clashes at sea between all parties have made goodwill scarce and turned it into "every man for themselves" so why should China not seek to expand its holdings, why does it not have the right to do so given there were hardly any binding agreements on the matter that everyone was abiding by?

So the bottom line from what I see is that you simply don't believe China has a legitimate territorial claim or the right to enforce it.
 

climax

New Member
Don't get mad at China for it's reclamation work. China is not stopping other claimants from doing the same thing. There is NO universal rule on the SCS as to how much or what size a reclamation work should in the first place.

I don't get mad, just follow the topic.
No universal rules, but DOC and what did all the other want: COC.
You can make reclamation on big Islands at Paracel, maybe only Vietnam will complain, but in Spratly, its change status quo, change de facto.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
I don't get mad, just follow the topic.
No universal rules, but DOC and what did all the other want: COC.
You can make reclamation on big Islands at Paracel, maybe only Vietnam will complain, but in Spratly, its change status quo, change de facto.

You mean it gave China a stronger claim on the Spratly islands than the other players? Why should China not change that status quo when it historically belongs to them in the first place? The so called COC can't change that fact or history.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't get mad, just follow the topic.
No universal rules, but DOC and what did all the other want: COC.
You can make reclamation on big Islands at Paracel, maybe only Vietnam will complain, but in Spratly, its change status quo, change de facto.

I don't get mad, just follow the topic.
No universal rules, but DOC and what did all the other want: COC.
You can make reclamation on big Islands at Paracel, maybe only Vietnam will complain, but in Spratly, its change status quo, change de facto.
If you want Vietnam to go toe to toe with China in SCS, that's unreasonable and unachievable.
US, being the top dog in the region, will challenge the Chinese sovereignty on newly formed geological features in SCS by symbolically passing through, as they did recently by sending in a lone littoral cruise ship, is not like holding a gun to China's head. All you need to do is escort them along and show them the door. Will US be able to do it to 5 - 10 more years? You bet. 20 years? Nobody can tell.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
If you want Vietnam to go toe to toe with China in SCS, that's unreasonable and unachievable.
US, being the top dog in the region, will challenge the Chinese sovereignty on newly formed geological features in SCS by symbolically passing through, as they did recently by sending in a lone littoral cruise ship, is not like holding a gun to China's head. All you need to do is escort them along and show them the door. Will US be able to do it to 5 - 10 more years? You bet. 20 years? Nobody can tell.

How will single cruiser will stop construction work or reclamation on a defenseless site? Wouldn't that be posturing for war?
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
How will single cruiser will stop construction work or reclamation on a defenseless site? Wouldn't that be posturing for war?
They way I see it, China only needs to do one thing at a time. Build the islands first. Manage the reactions and provocations like any respectable business would do, not like a thug. China is not Somalia. Then we will talk about the legality and sovereignty stuff, but reality would hardly pan out like that in a simple sequence I admit.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
They way I see it, China only needs to do one thing at a time. Build the islands first. Manage the reactions and provocations like any respectable business would do, not like a thug. China is not Somalia. Then we will talk about the legality and sovereignty stuff, but reality would hardly pan out like that in a simple sequence I admit.

Why should China follow by someone else's rules and reactions? Did Vietnam and the Philippines did the same when they first started putting military posts through out the SCS claims like a "thug" long before China started their reclamation work?
 
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