South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

joshuatree

Captain
There's difference point of view.
You think China reclamation was responding to other countries, but like I explain, it's like how China made reef under water become outpost with big garrison and forty with gun and men.

_ Philippines hasn't resource, so they keep their old garrison, even on rotten ship.
_ Malaysia expanded their post long time ago, and seem like PRC had not any complain.
_ Same with VNese, simple, we began on small Island and sand field, to improve life conditions after we took control from South VN.
_ China began on Spartly with all reef that they take from VN after battle 1988, all under water when tide up.
It's far, far away from China mainland, yet PRC made them become strong outpost, even with big radar station in vast sea.
So we all do the same at before, improve your post in limit, enough for garrison, no more outpost. It was fair and agreed term.

_ But now, after become great power, it's clearly, China has more resource to turn a mere reef become huge artificial islands.
This event continue after many other actions made tension rise on the region. They took Scarborough shoal from Philippines, even could take Eldad Reef if VNese has weak react.
PRC excuse was not reasonable enough for their intention was prepare for create new ADIZ, which was believe by many experts.

It's just like how they want to drilling oil on disputed area, because VNese had drilling in undisputed area where was turn out also disputed in Chinese eyes because it was inside their 9-10-11-dash-lines map which cover nearly 90% of SCS.


I was very specific in the timeline that I commented on. Every ASEAN gathering, the Philippines and Vietnam led the charge on wanting the organization to come out with some harsh statement against China. The actual and more subdued statements always refer back to the ideals within the code of conduct. A lot of examples you listed predate the code of conduct. When looking from 2002 onwards, we have proof that Vietnam was reclaiming land before China started. So in this most provocative activity (compared to building huts, satellite dishes, and greenhouses), China wouldn't be the initiator. What principle is Vietnam relying on to call out China for not adhering to the ideals in the code if it was actually committing the same violations? Your explanation is that it's always been ongoing but that means it's been ongoing with Vietnam too. So saying the code was trashed by China doesn't hold. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

In the case of land reclamation, I'm certain China had drafted plans for it but I do believe with limited sized platforms and Vietnam just chugging away at slowly reclaiming with zero scrutiny from other parties, it was a threshold crossed that prompted response and they opted to just do everything at once because with this action, there is no going back.
 

ManilaBoy45

Junior Member
China, U.S. Head Toward Faceoff in South China Sea

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Gregory Korte and Tom Vanden Brook, USA TODAY 11:45 p.m. MDT May 13, 2015

WASHINGTON — The Chinese government gave a stern warning Wednesday that it will protect its sovereignty in the South China Sea after a cat-and-mouse pursuit of a U.S. warship by a Chinese frigate."The Chinese side will take resolute measures to safeguard national sovereignty and safety. We will keep an eye on the situation in relevant waters and airspace and respond to any violation of China's sovereignty and threat to China's national security," said Hua Chunying, a spokeswoman for the Chinese Foreign Ministry.

Her warning came after an advanced Navy warship — the USS Fort Worth — sailed through the South China Sea on Monday near islands China is building in an effort to extend its territorial claims. The United States considers the area to be international waters, and the Philippine and Japanese navies have conducted exercises in the area in an attempt to counter the Chinese claims.The Pentagon will continue to patrol, from air and sea, the area around the Spratly islands, Army Col. Steve Warren said Wednesday. International law does not recognize man-made islands as extensions of the mainland, Warren said.
 

ManilaBoy45

Junior Member
Philippines to Turn Disputed Sea Outcrops Into Tourist Destinations

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Marine_zps3tzynges.jpg


May 14, 2015 10:02AM

THE Philippines plans to turn some disputed South China Sea islands into tourist sites to promote peace as China builds suspected military facilities on nearby reclaimed reefs, Filipino officials said.Military chief of staff General Gregorio Catapang announced the plan as he flew to Thitu, the largest of nine outcrops garrisoned by Filipino forces in the Spratly archipelago, and overflew the eight others.He said the military would help local officials put a ferry service in place next year.It would take tourists from Palawan island in the Philippines, the nearest large land mass, to those islands and reefs in the Spratly islands which are held by Manila.

“What we want to happen is, from Palawan we can pass by Patag island, Lawak, Likas and then Pagasa. We can go back via Panata, Kota island and then Ayungin Shoal and back,” Catapang said, using the Filipino name for some of the Filipino-held islands.“It can be a good tourism effort,” the general said.Catapang said the project could help improve the port and runway facilities of Thitu, known in the Philippines as Pagasa, amid what the Philippines has described as massive reclamation and construction activity which began last year on nearby Subi Reef and other Chinese-held features.The Philippine military has said these structures could be turned into large naval and air bases that would allow China, which claims most of the South China Sea, to deploy forces to bolster its claim.

 

joshuatree

Captain
Reclamation by Vietnam being picked up in German media. Sand Cay before/after pic below.

fdzyuf.jpg


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Zachary Abuza, an independent Southeast Asia security analyst, explains that these are amongst the more than a dozen manned outposts that Vietnam maintains on small islands and features in the Spratlys. These include fairly large islands, including Spratly Island, which has its own airfield, as well as small concrete structures constructed on rocks barely above the surface at high tide, as well as steel-constructed lighthouses and aids to navigation.

"All of the outposts include personnel from the Vietnamese military, as well as from different government ministries and serve the purpose of asserting Vietnamese sovereignty," Abuza told DW.

Hanoi, in turn, defended its construction activities in the area, noting they have not affected the status quo, nor escalated underlying regional tensions over territorial disputes. Speaking to reporters in Hanoi on May 14, Foreign Ministry spokesman Le Hai Binh said the nation's actions in this regard were "normal and lawful," adding that the "infrastructure improvement projects" are meant to meet the basic needs of residents on the Spratly Islands managed by Vietnam.

So the answers are the same as China. As for not changing status quo or escalating tensions, that is highly subjective. The answers fail to explain why Vietnam should be exempted from criticism on not adhering to the spirit of the code of conduct if it's such a big deal to the rest of the other claimants.


China contends that it is simply doing what other countries are doing, and in that regard, experts argue Vietnam's land reclamation projects undermine its protests against ongoing Chinese reclamation efforts.

Glad to hear there is still some objectivity but it's a minor voice being drowned out.
 

climax

New Member
PRC is not going to create a SCS ADIZ unless someone else does it first or local basing is established by significant Japanese or US forces. An ADIZ is more of a political tool and only has as much practical effect as its enforcement. At the same time such an enforcement capability can exist without an ADIZ.

It's political move, if PRC has capable to control these vast areas, so they're dominance postition, declare ADIZ or "fishing ban" is just part of game, if other parties accepted it, surely, Chinese can argue they're accept China claim and right in SCS.
It's plain as day if you look at how Chinese argue about Vietnamese PM Pham Van Dong's letter to Zhou Enlai.

Because China is only interested in resolving its own territorial disputes, not that of its neighbors.

That is to say, China wants to negotiate individual resolutions with, say, Vietnam and PH. If, after those negotiations, Vietnam and PH still has a dispute between themselves, that's not China's business.

So you want to negotiate with Philippines about islands/reef was occupied by Vietnam, Malaysia, and negotiate with Vietnam about islands/reef was occupied by other parties !?

How did it could solve the case !?
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
I can understand the frustration of other smaller claimants in SCS where they have fallen way behind what China has done in last couple of years. But if your protestations are aimed to stop or shame China's ongoing land reclamation and infrastructure buildings on them, you've already lost it. What US is doing so far, sending a littoral cruise ship, is just symbolic, no more no less.
 

climax

New Member
So you're saying China's whole plan all along was to dominate the SCS via its claimed territorial boundary?
That's not impossible, because after all we should remember that this is a territorial dispute after all, however if you're specifically wanting to look at who started tensions unfortunately you will have to compare who started

reclamation first.

That said, China's current round of reclamation isn't necessarily just a response to that of other SCS states, but rather it reflects its own interests and perceived capabilities of the present. However if you're trying to pin the blame on

China for increasing tensions by reclaiming islands it is pretty hypocritical to ignore what other states in the region have also done in their own claimed islands in the past.
This is a territorial dispute after all, and one can hardly fault China for doing more expansive reclamation than other states have done given it has the ability to.
If other countries were not willing to compromise and instead actually expanded their holdings or expanded reclamation, then that basically throws any good intentions out of the window anyway.

Eventually I suspect the long term goal is for China to dominate the SCS and then negotiate a complete resolution to the territorial disputes from a position of power.
I was very specific in the timeline that I commented on. Every ASEAN gathering, the Philippines and Vietnam led the charge on wanting the organization to come out with some

harsh statement against China. The actual and more subdued statements always refer back to the ideals within the code of conduct. A lot of examples you listed predate the code of conduct. When looking from 2002 onwards, we

have proof that Vietnam was reclaiming land before China started. So in this most provocative activity (compared to building huts, satellite dishes, and greenhouses), China wouldn't be the initiator. What principle is Vietnam relying

on to call out China for not adhering to the ideals in the code if it was actually committing the same violations? Your explanation is that it's always been ongoing but that means it's been ongoing with Vietnam too. So saying the

code was trashed by China doesn't hold. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

In the case of land reclamation, I'm certain China had drafted plans for it but I do believe with limited sized platforms and Vietnam just chugging away at slowly reclaiming with zero scrutiny from other parties, it was a threshold

crossed that prompted response and they opted to just do everything at once because with this action, there is no going back.

I tried to don't blame anything in here, it's mostly useless to saying that on here.

The disputed has hardest part: China's claim, which was not only Spratly and Paracel, but also 90% of SCS, but no detail to explain what is it and what come along with it.

You can defend for China's building work by consider the other do the same, but you forget many thing else.
And with many move and actions from China, after use military forces (or law-enforcement armed ships) to take Islands/reef, "fishing ban", demand or threaten oil company like BP, Total ... to retreat from deal with Vietnam, even cut

the cable of Vietnamese exploration vessel (Binh Minh 02's case), chase out and ram on fishing ships ...

China was offensive side, not only by building job, but by many other moves.

Of course, you can say Vietnam do the same in oil rig 981 case, but 981 was in disputed area, near Paracel, inside where was considered Vietnamese EEZ.
BinhMinh 02's case was ...same, it's only 43nm from Cồn Cỏ Islands of Vietnam, but inside China's 9-10-11-dash-lines map.

Did you see the problem !?
China's claim was from a map at first, not from the fact, so they made it, move after move, build and made de facto. Remember, before this, though China claim is big and biggest in SCS, but there position in Spatly was weak, small outpost in middle vast sea.

When you talking about land reclamation, and you said "China had drafted plans for it", so there was not because any action from other parties, look back at China's move, you will sure about it, which is thing that China must to do.
How could you give order like "fishing ban" which was announce in yesterday 16/05/2015 or any action related to "right of sovereignty" when you're not resource and power to do it !?
If you want to do it, and make the other accept your demand, enhance your position and capable.

You saying that Vietnam, Fillipinos or Malaysia (and seem like China alway forget about Malay in their complain) was building first, but of course we do it first, because at before 1988, China's nowhere in Spratly.
And China was building from water, while other side like Vietnam, Taiwan, Malay, Fillippines hold all big rock and Islands.
From wooden hut on water, to big concrete outpost and building, expand and improve more and more like any other, but it's still structures on reef under water, all of China's positions.

The other side like Vietnam, Malaysia, Filippines building too, but they did not demand like China, not made moves like China, and sure, not building like China.

At before China reclamation on Spratly, why did nobody complain anything !?
Because they're accepted the fact, you can improve your outpost, but don't change De facto, there's compromise. Most Chinese forget Paracel was a disputed also, which was reclaiming non-stop by China.

So there was not provocative activity or hypocrite from Vietnam or other party. China Govt was accused because they tried to change de facto, made reef under wanter become big Islands, this will give China a advantge in bilaterally way negotiation.

And there, China's intention: Bilaterally way, if we went to that way, when China finished their reclamation, with all facilities and logistic support, NEW BIG ISLANDS, not a reef under water, China has more power to control in the fact, so other parties must to accept new de facto.
But there's still someone saying it shall be solve by bilaterally way, which nobody want it but China.

And don't try to be stupid, at before 2010, did China had enough resource and power to do this kind of reclamation !?
China Govt planned it, and when time has came, do it.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
A billion dollar question is : Would Vietnam able to do it in SCS on the same scale and scope as China's?
 

climax

New Member
I can understand the frustration of other smaller claimants in SCS where they have fallen way behind what China has done in last couple of years. But if your protestations are aimed to stop or shame China's ongoing land reclamation and infrastructure buildings on them, you've already lost it. What US is doing so far, sending a littoral cruise ship, is just symbolic, no more no less.

You don't understand, even ASEAN raise their voice about reclamation, now.
Because China changed de facto, which was agreed and compromise from 2002.
Read my post above.

Reclamation by Vietnam being picked up in German media. Sand Cay before/after pic below.

fdzyuf.jpg


So the answers are the same as China. As for not changing status quo or escalating tensions, that is highly subjective. The answers fail to explain why Vietnam should be exempted from criticism on not adhering to the spirit of the code of conduct if it's such a big deal to the rest of the other claimants.

Glad to hear there is still some objectivity but it's a minor voice being drowned out.

It's not same.
At before, Vietnamese, Filippines, Malaysia were building on islands, it's still Islands, but China made NEW ISLANDS.
We know it violated what was compromise, DOC, COC ... China changed de facto in Spratly.

P/S: I hated new edit tool, can't change your post after 10 min
 
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