South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

joshuatree said:

The current revelation is that after the 2002 DOC, Vietnam has been continuing to reclaim land on reefs and building new outposts. And this was before China's recent and ongoing land reclamation. So DOC becoming poo isn't because of the Chinese. That was the accusation but the recent validation by western sources throws that charge out the window (the Chinese had been saying that for a while now but of course why would the opposition believe them). Yes, Chinese decided to go big with scale of reclamation but they would be responding to other reclamation as opposed to instigating it.

Click to expand...

There's difference point of view.
You think China reclamation was responding to other countries, but like I explain, it's like how China made reef under water become outpost with big garrison and forty with gun and men.

_ Philippines hasn't resource, so they keep their old garrison, even on rotten ship.
_ Malaysia expanded their post long time ago, and seem like PRC had not any complain.
_ Same with VNese, simple, we began on small Island and sand field, to improve life conditions after we took control from South VN.
_ China began on Spartly with all reef that they take from VN after battle 1988, all under water when tide up.
It's far, far away from China mainland, yet PRC made them become strong outpost, even with big radar station in vast sea.
So we all do the same at before, improve your post in limit, enough for garrison, no more outpost. It was fair and agreed term.

_ But now, after become great power, it's clearly, China has more resource to turn a mere reef become huge artificial islands.
This event continue after many other actions made tension rise on the region. They took Scarborough shoal from Philippines, even could take Eldad Reef if VNese has weak react.
PRC excuse was not reasonable enough for their intention was prepare for create new ADIZ, which was believe by many experts.

It's just like how they want to drilling oil on disputed area, because VNese had drilling in undisputed area where was turn out also disputed in Chinese eyes because it was inside their 9-10-11-dash-lines map which cover nearly 90% of SCS.


Evidence of Chinese move on Eldad Reef.

Garrison map on SCS.

climax said:

It'll be damn tension if PRC declare new ADIZ on SCS.

Click to expand...

PRC is not going to create a SCS ADIZ unless someone else does it first or local basing is established by significant Japanese or US forces. An ADIZ is more of a political tool and only has as much practical effect as its enforcement. At the same time such an enforcement capability can exist without an ADIZ.

shen said:

One thing that I've been wondering about, China keeps on insisting that territorial disputes should be solved bilaterally, but how is that applicable to the Spartly Islands dispute? Certainly no claimants parties such as ASEAN countries without claim to Spartly and the USA shouldn't be part of the negotiation. But with the overlapping claims in Spartly Islands group, there is no way the dispute can be solved bilaterally.

Click to expand...

Because China is only interested in resolving its own territorial disputes, not that of its neighbors.

That is to say, China wants to negotiate individual resolutions with, say, Vietnam and PH. If, after those negotiations, Vietnam and PH still has a dispute between themselves, that's not China's business.

solarz said:

Because China is only interested in resolving its own territorial disputes, not that of its neighbors.

That is to say, China wants to negotiate individual resolutions with, say, Vietnam and PH. If, after those negotiations, Vietnam and PH still has a dispute between themselves, that's not China's business.

Click to expand...

Since most of the disputed islands occupied by Chinese, Vietnamese and Malaysians are within Philippines' EEZ, no matter how the disputes are resolved, Philippines is the biggest loser. They did try to joined exploration the resources once few years back until Philippines called it off since its countrymen later realized that the joined explorations were actually within their EEZ and not other claimants' EEZ.

Zetageist said:

Since most of the disputed islands occupied by Chinese, Vietnamese and Malaysians are within Philippines' EEZ, no matter how the disputes are resolved, Philippines is the biggest loser. They did try to joined exploration the resources once few years back until Philippines called it off since its countrymen later realized that the joined explorations were actually within their EEZ and not other claimants' EEZ.

Click to expand...

the 2005 deal (which expired in 2008) is still the best model for joint exploration and reduce tension. nobody gave up sovereignty, just an agreement between oil companies. 1/6 of the exploration area was reportedly in Filipino EEZ not claimed by China or Vietnam. okay, maybe Philippines should push for better terms next time.


the alternative is nobody get to benefit from the natural resources and increase the chance for a clash that nobody wants.

climax said:

There's difference point of view.
You think China reclamation was responding to other countries, but like I explain, it's like how China made reef under water become outpost with big garrison and forty with gun and men.

_ Philippines hasn't resource, so they keep their old garrison, even on rotten ship.
_ Malaysia expanded their post long time ago, and seem like PRC had not any complain.
_ Same with VNese, simple, we began on small Island and sand field, to improve life conditions after we took control from South VN.
_ China began on Spartly with all reef that they take from VN after battle 1988, all under water when tide up.
It's far, far away from China mainland, yet PRC made them become strong outpost, even with big radar station in vast sea.
So we all do the same at before, improve your post in limit, enough for garrison, no more outpost. It was fair and agreed term.

_ But now, after become great power, it's clearly, China has more resource to turn a mere reef become huge artificial islands.
This event continue after many other actions made tension rise on the region. They took Scarborough shoal from Philippines, even could take Eldad Reef if VNese has weak react.
PRC excuse was not reasonable enough for their intention was prepare for create new ADIZ, which was believe by many experts.

It's just like how they want to drilling oil on disputed area, because VNese had drilling in undisputed area where was turn out also disputed in Chinese eyes because it was inside their 9-10-11-dash-lines map which cover nearly 90% of SCS.
.

Click to expand...

It is NOT China's job to do reclamation work according to the feelings of those opposition parties in the SCS that had ALREADY done some reclamation work of their own before. If they can't keep up than they need to keep out.

Equation said:

It is NOT China's job to do reclamation work according to the feelings of those opposition parties in the SCS that had ALREADY done some reclamation work of their own before. If they can't keep up than they need to keep out.

Click to expand...

LOL, your words "keep up" is simple a favour to PRC own desire.
So PRC can take more Island and "keep up", if other parties cannot hold China back, so they're "keep out".

So why did you guy defend "China was not began it first" !?

It was not kind of who began reclamation first, it was China strategiy at begin.

ASEAN solution was COC, which can stop China control all SCS as they want by juridical term .
But COC was delayed, and by building massive facilities in SCS, with huge harbour, all logistics resource to provides to all fishing ship and law-enforcement armed fleets like CMS, China will not only can create ADIZ, but control all SCS in reality.

CMS ships dock at Spratly facilities can chase out other countries fishing ships, or announce the order "fishing ban", while Chinese fishing ship has all logistics support to dominance all area.

solarz said:

Because China is only interested in resolving its own territorial disputes, not that of its neighbors.

That is to say, China wants to negotiate individual resolutions with, say, Vietnam and PH. If, after those negotiations, Vietnam and PH still has a dispute between themselves, that's not China's business.

Click to expand...

But China territorial disputes was involves to all other parties disputed. China's claim cover most SCS by dash-lines map which was no detail to explain, and after many move to take and build and "keep up", surely nobody in ASEA want to negotiate in bilaterally way.

climax said:

LOL, your words "keep up" is simple a favour to PRC own desire.
So PRC can take more Island and "keep up", if other parties cannot hold China back, so they're "keep out".

So why did you guy defend "China was not began it first" !?

It was not kind of who began reclamation first, it was China strategiy at begin.

ASEAN solution was COC, which can stop China control all SCS as they want by juridical term .
But COC was delayed, and by building massive facilities in SCS, with huge harbour, all logistics resource to provides to all fishing ship and law-enforcement armed fleets like CMS, China will not only can create ADIZ, but control all SCS in reality.

CMS ships dock at Spratly facilities can chase out other countries fishing ships, or announce the order "fishing ban", while Chinese fishing ship has all logistics support to dominance all area.

Click to expand...

So you're saying China's whole plan all along was to dominate the SCS via its claimed territorial boundary?
That's not impossible, because after all we should remember that this is a territorial dispute after all, however if you're specifically wanting to look at who started tensions unfortunately you will have to compare who started reclamation first.

That said, China's current round of reclamation isn't necessarily just a response to that of other SCS states, but rather it reflects its own interests and perceived capabilities of the present. However if you're trying to pin the blame on China for increasing tensions by reclaiming islands it is pretty hypocritical to ignore what other states in the region have also done in their own claimed islands in the past.
This is a territorial dispute after all, and one can hardly fault China for doing more expansive reclamation than other states have done given it has the ability to.
If other countries were not willing to compromise and instead actually expanded their holdings or expanded reclamation, then that basically throws any good intentions out of the window anyway.

Eventually I suspect the long term goal is for China to dominate the SCS and then negotiate a complete resolution to the territorial disputes from a position of power.

Zetageist said:

But China territorial disputes was involves to all other parties disputed. China's claim cover most SCS by dash-lines map which was no detail to explain, and after many move to take and build and "keep up", surely nobody in ASEA want to negotiate in bilaterally way.

Click to expand...

Both Brunei and Malaysia would beg to differ.

solarz:

But China territorial disputes was involves to all other parties disputed. China's claim cover most SCS by dash-lines map which was no detail to explain, and after many move to take and build and "keep up", surely nobody in ASEA want to negotiate in bilaterally way.

Click to expand...

You are quoting from the wrong person. I didn't write that. climax did.