Significance of the Chinese military contribution to World War 2 disputed.

vesicles

Colonel
Disagreed with you here as I have pointed out in my previous post. The communist never forget what the nationalist had done for the country. And they credited them accordingly too. The reason for making the nationalist 'evil' and 'the enemy' at the beginning was because they needed local support for their war effort in the Chinese civil war... and later because the new government are still not too stable yet.

What you said here is simply WHY they chose to cover it all up. That does not change the fact that they credited themselves for fighting the Japanese in the WWII and mention little about the Nationlaists. As you said, they made Nationalists evil and chose to hide some very important facts about the Nationaolists in the WWII.
 

vesicles

Colonel
both the ccp and kmt didn't do as much as the local guerrillas and militia/warlords guys did.

the official armies were not that effective.

What?? Please go back and read my previous post (#23). The offical Chinese army did the majority of the fighting in the WWII. In China, the Japanese could not advance much after 1939 all because of highly effective campaigns fought by the Nationalists. Japan at the time had poured huge amount of troops in China because they couldn't advance as planned. In 3 battles of Changsha, the Japanese had close to a million troops in the theater. In the China/Burma/India theater, Chinese Nationalist armies were able to completely push the Japanese out of Southwest China, Burma and India in 1944/45. Please bear in mind that the Japanese troops stationed in Burma and India were some of the most elite in the Japanese army and totaled close to 200,000. Now can a few ill-equipped, ill-trained and ill-organized local militia do anything to this massive mechanized forces equipped with large artillery forces, armorred divisions, one of the most powerful air forces at the time? Nationlasts were able to halt the advances of the Japanese by suffering huge casualties. Especially in the early stage of the war when the Chinese was not experienced with the new way of fighting. They were still fighting trench battles and faced the brunt of the massive Japanese firepower head-on. Often an entire army perrished just to halt the enemy for a few more days. As the fighting went on, they began to learn from their mistakes and the fighting became very effective. The strategy at the time was to use space to win time. They sent forces to East China to slow down the Japanese advance enough for the troops in Central China to regroup and organize effective defenses. The end result was more and more effective defense aganist the Japanese attacks. So early on in North China, the Japanese was able to advance with a few trouble. by the time they got to East China, they were facing highly effective defenses mounted by the Nationalists. Their advances slowed to a crawl. In the Battle of Taierzhuang, the Japanese was defeated by the Nationalists in a major campaign and suffered nearly 20,000 casualties. The defeat was so important that it led to a major change within the Japanese govn't.

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And evetually the table was turned. In the middle to late stage of the war, Japanese suffered huge casualties and lost entire divisions at a time, such as battle of changsha and china/Burma/India. It was the official army of China that did all the fighting. Do you think some local militia can do something close to this? If you want to know what local militia can do to an occupation force, just look at Iraqi fighters nowadays. Yes, they can put some IEDs here and there, but can they change the situation strategically? the answer is obiviously NO. The US troops are obiviously frustrated by these fighters, but the overal situaion in the country is still considered stable. That's as much as what the local militia in China cound do in the WWII. They might be able to blow up a few fortresses here and there, but they couldn't do a thing to the overall strategic situation. The same can also be said of the French resistance during German occupation in the WWII. Yes, they were fighting, but they could not do a thing to the Germans until the Allied forces landed on Normandy. You need formal military to fight in major engagements to alter the situation.

Most of the myth we hear about how brave the CCP army was, like fighting hand-to-hand combats with the Japanese using big knives, attacking enemy position in a hail of enemy fire, blowing themselves up with the enemies, were actually stories of Nationalist soldiers fighting the Japanese. In the WWII, Nationalist soldiers were very brave. Even the Japanese soldiers wrote in their diary about how unhuman-like these Chinese soldiers were on the battlefield. They wrote that it was not uncommon at all to see generals in the Nationalist armies lead an attack in the front carrying nothing but a big knife and a bunch of grenades.

Although there were definitely conflits within the Nationalist army, the scale of the conflit was blown way out of proportion by the CCP in their campaign to win support of the people. One good example, Battle of Taierzhuang. At the time, Jiang jieshi asked all warlords to send their troops to fight the Japanese. The lord of Yunnan, Long Yun, sent two of his most elite armies to the front. Long Yun at the time ruled Yun Nan alone and was effectively independent from the central govn't. When the fighting went bad and over half of his troops was gone, his commanding general telegraphed him and was worried about losing the most elite troops. And Long Yun told the general to do whatever he could to fight the Japanese until the last man. He said in his letter that although he and Jiang did not get along, they had to put this difference aside in the face of a foreign invasion. And eventually his entire army was destroyed.

The Nationalists sacrificed greatly during the WWII. My own conservative estimate is that the Nationalists suffered over half a million casualties in WWII. The actual figure could be much higher than this figure. Because of some political reasons, their sacrifice has not been appreciated and recognized. I think it is time that we give them the credit they deserve. the first thing we can do is to actually learn what they did. It is not hard to find out what the Nationalists have done in the war. All we have to do is first to ignore the propaganda and sit down and read some serious history books. We don't even need to dig around to find out the truth. Everything is laid out on the surface. All we need to do is to simply look to that direction.
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
What?? Please go back and read my previous post (#23). The offical Chinese army did the majority of the fighting in the WWII. .

THats great stuff :) Its pleasing that somebodys prepared to set the record straight.
 
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vesicles

Colonel
Here are some documentaries about what Nationalist armies did in WWII. These were made by the Mainland. In the documentary about the Chinese Expeditionary Forces, they mentioned that while both sides (Nationalists and Japanese) fought ferociously in the 40's, Japanese veteran went back to Burma and built many monuments, even some for their horses. However, there's not a single one monument for the Chinese soldiers/officers. Sad...

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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
What you said here is simply WHY they chose to cover it all up. That does not change the fact that they credited themselves for fighting the Japanese in the WWII and mention little about the Nationlaists. As you said, they made Nationalists evil and chose to hide some very important facts about the Nationaolists in the WWII.

Yes... what I meant... is -

The communist did cover up most of what the Nationalist had done in WWII, so as to make themselves look superior (morally). However as the regime were more stable as of now, we started to really see the communist did come out and make documentaries and movies and serials that depicts the heroisms of the nationalists too. So it is not that the communists had totally forgotten and discredit the nationalists.

Plus when I was touring in China, I did visited the meseum, which actually also had a place for all (even nationalists commanders and soldiers) in it. If the communists really did their best to discredit or not giving any credits to the nationalists, then they would not even bother with all these.

The reason I gave for the coverup was at the start of the communist regime... but now, things are different.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Yes... what I meant... is -

The communist did cover up most of what the Nationalist had done in WWII, so as to make themselves look superior (morally). However as the regime were more stable as of now, we started to really see the communist did come out and make documentaries and movies and serials that depicts the heroisms of the nationalists too. So it is not that the communists had totally forgotten and discredit the nationalists.

Plus when I was touring in China, I did visited the meseum, which actually also had a place for all (even nationalists commanders and soldiers) in it. If the communists really did their best to discredit or not giving any credits to the nationalists, then they would not even bother with all these.

The reason I gave for the coverup was at the start of the communist regime... but now, things are different.

Agreed. As you see, almost all the documentaries I listed above have been made by the Mainland with the permission of the CCP, of course.

I guess I am one of those who were educated by the Communists and was led to believe that all Nationalists did in the war was to cowardly hide behind the couragious Communists. Now I found out that this cannot be further from the truth. I'm feeling a little betrayed and at the same time feel the need to give the credit to those who gave up their lives to defend China. I'm just feeling sad for these brave soldiers who sacrificed so much and yet were painted as cowards...
 

ABC78

Junior Member
One of the main reasons that China's contributions to the war effort is marginalized because of politics. If you live in the west they always say that WW2 was started by Hitler in Europe in 1939. They don't consider Japan's invasion of China in 1937 or 1931 as part of WW2. Because this period makes the west look bad as they stood by and allowed millions of Chinese civilians to be slaughter by Japan. Also with the 1949 victory of the CCP vs the KMT the need to play down the war in China so that the west can repair their relations with Japan as part of Cold War politics.

Because the west ignores this period of Chinese history they constantly misinterpret the present Chinese defense policies. In the west it would be like not invoking 9/11 every time security has to tighten to prevent another terrorist attack.

When the west establishes 1939 as the beginning of WW2 it also allows them to excludes many of China's great victories against Japan. Even though Japan's invasion of China in 1937 would lead the US to declaring an oil embargo on Japan. The oil embargo on Japan imposed by the US leads to the attack on Pearl Harbor and the Japanese campaign to seize the oil fields of south east Asia.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
One of the main reasons that China's contributions to the war effort is marginalized because of politics. If you live in the west they always say that WW2 was started by Hitler in Europe in 1939. They don't consider Japan's invasion of China in 1937 or 1931 as part of WW2. Because this period makes the west look bad as they stood by and allowed millions of Chinese civilians to be slaughter by Japan. Also with the 1949 victory of the CCP vs the KMT the need to play down the war in China so that the west can repair their relations with Japan as part of Cold War politics.

Because the west ignores this period of Chinese history they constantly misinterpret the present Chinese defense policies. In the west it would be like not invoking 9/11 every time security has to tighten to prevent another terrorist attack.

When the west establishes 1939 as the beginning of WW2 it also allows them to excludes many of China's great victories against Japan. Even though Japan's invasion of China in 1937 would lead the US to declaring an oil embargo on Japan. The oil embargo on Japan imposed by the US leads to the attack on Pearl Harbor and the Japanese campaign to seize the oil fields of south east Asia.

To be more accurate, WWII actually 'officially' started after the entire world or most of the entire world actually join into the battle. And with the formation of Axis and Allies.

Invasion of China by the Japanese in 1937, do not actually counted as WWII if we are to look at the context in detail, because it is only the battle between two country. Thus they are not counted into WWII. But the invasion could be actually be looked as one of the major conflicts that lead to WWII but not WWII itself.
 

bobcou

New Member
Registered Member
If anyone is wondering then why can CCP beat KMT ultimately if the KMT was the formal army.

One word, Inflation.
After the war, KMT had massive inflation similar to the Great Depression. Everyone was so poor couldn't eat, people needed a radical solution, CCP had that solution. This is a brief summary. IF there was no such massive inflation, then CCP would have never risen to power. You could basically put people in the US and Europe's citations from the Great Depression and use it in the KMT inflation, just change the currency that is mentioned =P. Also by then, KMT was also genuinely corrupt, just like how CCP is right now as well.

You don't do a revolution unless you are desperate. But again, the CCP in the 1940s really was genuine force that believed it was the best for China. And CCP at that time really was a better alternative than the KMT as it wasn't corrupt. Actual genuine belief in the better for China.

Somewhere along the road, it has lost its way now.
 
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