Significance of the Chinese military contribution to World War 2 disputed.

solarz said:

Look at the 5 campaigns waged by the PVA. In the first 3 campaigns, the PVA was on the offensive. The 3rd campaign ended with the PVA taking Seoul. In the 4th campaign, the PVA was forced to retreat, and in the 5th campaign, the frontline remained at the 38th parallel.

The casualties sustained by the PVA was far higher in each of the 4th and 5th campaigns were higher than their casualties in the first 3 campaigns combined. The 5th campaign was especially brutal, as that is where the PVA fought most of their defensive actions.

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That's very interesting information. Can you provide links to casualty numbers? Word of mouth battle accounts are important historical references, but they're not enough by themselves to give reasonably accurate and balanced reports.

Blackstone said:

That's very interesting information. Can you provide links to casualty numbers? Word of mouth battle accounts are important historical references, but they're not enough by themselves to give reasonably accurate and balanced reports.

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And what would you consider reasonably accurate and balanced? I've already pointed out the campaigns, you can do the googling yourself.

solarz said:

And what would you consider reasonably accurate and balanced? I've already pointed out the campaigns, you can do the googling yourself.

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So, you pulled the offensive vs. defense casualty numbers out of thin air, and you don't really have official accounts- even Chine sources- to support what you say?

Blackstone said:

So, you pulled the offensive vs. defense casualty numbers out of thin air, and you don't really have official accounts- even Chine sources- to support what you say?

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Main battles of the Eight Route Army and the New Fourth Army in the Second Sino-Japanese war.





that should be their source: 《中国人民解放军全史》军事历史研究部编，军事科学出版社，2000年


the battles’ records corroborate my point in #348 that the Communist troops largely fought against the Puppet troops with some Japanese troops support, not the Japanese main forces during the war.


is there a Chinese edition of it ?

lightspeed said:

you are probably unaware or choose to ignore the anti-Japanese war’s catastrophic damage and destruction to China that greatly softened the ground for Communism. that consists of all your parts of it.

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1st, lightspeed, I am completely aware of the damage, and I have ignored nothing.

Do not insinuate such a thing again here on SD towards people you do not know at all.

Second, despite the hardship imposed by World War II, none of that takes away anything from what I said. It is all true nonetheless.

...and please, seriously? "Trickery," really? You are going to have to do a LOT better than that.

The fact is, I do not agree with, or extol Mao at all. IMHO, he was a butcher and caused the deaths of tens of millions.

But this does not negate the fact that he was able to accomplish what he did in getting to power on the mainland, just as I stated.

Jeff Head said:

1st, lightspeed, I am completely aware of the damage, and I have ignored nothing.

Do not insinuate such a thing again here on SD towards people you do not know at all.

Second, despite the hardship imposed by World War II, none of that takes away anything from what I said. It is all true nonetheless.

The fact is, I do not agree with, or extol Mao at all. IMHO, he was a butcher and caused the deaths of tens of millions.

But this does not negate the fact that he was able to accomplish what he did in getting to power on the mainland, just as I stated.

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China’s problems then were complex and difficult to understand. you might not fully understand the situation. I don’t fully understand it too.

you previously mentioned the huge US aid to Nationalist China then. that is a half-truth. want my elaboration ?

Jeff Head said:

...and please, seriously? "Trickery," really? You are going to have to do a LOT better than that.

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I said what I believe to be the truth in SD.

日本都甲大佐說，清鄉的目的是為了強化治安。日本方面目前最關心的是津浦線南段的運輸安全。只要新四軍不破壞這一段的鐵路交通，日方則希望和新四軍有一個緩 衛地帶。潘漢年說，新四軍的發展很快，目前正在穩步地鞏固和擴大農村根據地，也無意立即佔領鐵路交通線和其他交通據點。日軍要給新四軍一定生存條件，否則 游擊隊就會隨時破壞鐵路交通的。
(《潘汉年的情报生涯》，人民出版社1996年9月版 )

潘漢年是饒漱石根據毛澤東的命令派去和日軍與汪精衛談判的代表，而胡均鶴則是前日佔區和汪精衛的談判代表。( 王明，中共五十年，東方出版社，2004年3月，190-192 )







In 1949 Pan was made a Deputy Mayor of Shanghai. On 3 April 1955 Pan was accused by the PRC Ministry of Public Security of "secretly seeking the assistance of the Japanese secret service organs and colluding with the major traitor Wang Jingwei". Pan was imprisoned until his death in 1977 but was posthumously rehabilitated. The charges made against him in 1955 are regarded by historians as bogus.



that conversation was quite intriguing. they were exchanging information that objectively reflected the military struggle between the Communists and the Japanese, and the reality of the situation then. Pan Hannian was conducting espionage against the Japanese enemy ? but there exists another possibility: they were conveying certain implicit message to the other side, and the New Fourth Army and the Japanese reached a tacit and implicit understanding with respect to the Jinpu railway ? so what really happened then ?

Stop it, Lightspeed. The conversation is veering into unfriendly territory.

lightspeed said:

...you previously mentioned the huge US aid to Nationalist China then, that is a half-truth...

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First, I did not talk about "huge" US aid to the Nationalists in my discussions with you. Second, I asked you not to accusing members of such things (lieing, or purposefully chosing to ignore the facts), lightspeed, you chose to ignore that warning. You will be suspended for a week.

Once again, no matter how you dice it......no matter what excuses you may make...no matter how you or I may feel about Mao and his ideology, the fact remains...on the mainland, Mao and the communists won

Lightspeed is suspended for one week.

This has occurred because lightspeed would not follow Moderator's instructions and generally being disruptive, combative, disdainful of others, and inciting.

Lightspeed, should you choose to come back, read the rules, obey them, follow moderator's instructions, and try and be a little less combative.