Significance of the Chinese military contribution to World War 2 disputed.

rhino123

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So you ask the Wikipedia folks, who killed / wounded the most Japanese military personnel? Was it USA? Russia? UK? France?

It was China, and if it wasn't for China, USA would be defeated and Hawaii would be Japanese.

Yes and no here. Yes, China inflicted the most Japanese casaulty until the atomic bomb set off. But that is mainly because Japan invaders are in China and fighting in china... while the Chinese resisted them for 8 years... thus the war actually occurred in a span of 8 years, of course, there are huge Japanese casaulty. As to Japan defeating the US and conquer Hawaii... there will never be such an incident happening, be it with China or any other third party country.

The main reason why Japan wanted to attack Hawaii was to prevent US's 7th fleet (i think) from interfering with them as they attack other Asian nations. In actual fact the attack came in two waves, which seriously hurt the US bases in Hawaii, but not totally crippling. In actual fact the Japanese could go for a third wave but the overall commander thought that they will suffer a large casaulty rate that they decline to go for it. Thus US in Hawaii was not really that weak.

Plus where does China come in here?

The Chinese in WW2 were busy fighting themselves and positioning themselves for power in a Japanese ruled China. There was a lot of backstabing to save your own butt. I can't blame them.

This is something I do not agree. What do you mean by Japanese ruled China? Japanese never ruled china... they conquered part of China, but never ruled China. And yes, Chiang Kai shek's nationalist army and Mao Zedong's communist forces are never really cooperating with each other, but down on earth, the Chinese forces on the whole still fought to reclaim the land they had lost (at least they try). So there are actually minimum infighting at that time.

The main thing is Chiang Kai Shek refuses to aid the communist or to give them supplies thus forcing the communists to build their own rifles or to basically scavage for weapons from the battlefield. But he never attack and the communists... who at that time had also be placed under the Nationalist Army and are known more popularly as the Eighth Route Army.
 

solarz

Brigadier
The Chinese in WW2 were busy fighting themselves and positioning themselves for power in a Japanese ruled China. There was a lot of backstabing to save your own butt. I can't blame them.

China was in such shambles and so disorganized Japan was able to really exploit that.

Before 1937 and the CCP-KMT cooperation, Japan was able to exploit Chiang's obsession with wiping out the communists, and took over huge swathes of northern lands, including Beijing. Between 1937-1945, what we call the "Eight Years of Resistance War", there was minimum infighting among CCP and KMT.

I must disagree with the above poster who says if not for China Hawaii would be under Japanese rule....if not for the USA mobilizing and fighting the war in the pacific..and finally urging russia to take back manchuria, china would not exist as we know it.

That's just plain wrong. If the USA had stayed out of WW2, the European theater would've ended in a stalemate at worst, with Hitler fighting a two-front war against UK and Russia. Japan would have eventually been forced to withdraw from China and Korea as by the 1940's, their forces and national economy were already stretched to the breaking point, while China was still slowly rallying their forces and building their assets.

Granted, Japanese imperialism would not have been defeated, as China did not have the capability to mount an invasion of Japan. Coastal cities might even have remained under threat for quite some time while the Chinese built up defenses to counter Japanese naval superiority. However, Japanese imperialism would've led Japan to focus on military buildup, which would have eventually collapsed their economy, much as had happened to the USSR. Meanwhile, China, being a much larger nation, would've had the resources and manpower to build both their economy and their military.
 

vesicles

Colonel
I've watched some new documentaries on Chinese forces in WWII and got some new appreciation for the Nationalist troops. The general impression that Chinese forces were not doing a lot in WWII is just plainly wrong. It's true that when the Japanese started the invasion on 09-18-1937, the Chinese forces in Manchuria didn't do much except pulling back to the south of the Shanhai Pass. However, once the Japanese passed the same line, the Nationalists were fighting hard. Yes, they lost most of the fighting at the beginning (1937-1938), but no one can say they didn't try. And also yes, they lost battles because of conflicts within their own troops, but no one can say they gave up easily.

The impression that Nationalists were not fighting came from decades of communist education on the Mainland, in an effort to glorify what the communists were doing and to villainize the Nationalists. I myself got the same education when I went to grade school there. I think now they are trying to make thing right again since a lot of new documentaries show how much the Nationalists were contributing to the fighting.

Especially, in the middle and later stages of the war (after 1939) when the Japanese advanced to Central China, the Nationalists were very effective at fighting the Japanese. For instance, the Chinese fought the Japanese to a stalemate in Shangsha in 3 major battles (the battles of Changsha) in the span of 4 years (1939-1942). Note that this was NOT some guerilla fighting involving a company or two, but huge fighting involving army groups that totaled in close to half million troops from both sides in each one of these battles (details in websites below)

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Further, the Chinese fought Japan on a second front in Burma and India. Nationalists sent the Chinese Expeditionary Forces to Burma/ India in 1942 and fought the Japanese in Southeastern China in 2 campaigns for 3 years 'til the end of the war. This was also large battles between army groups. China and Allied forces (mainly British colonial forces) lost badly in the 1st campaign. However, Chinese forces alone came back and defeated the Japanese thoroughly and effectively in the second campaign. The Chinese forces were able to push Japanese almost completely out of Burma in 1944/45.

Also, the main reason that Japan decided to invade southeast Asia was to gather supply for their fighting in China. Years of fighting in China had stretched Japan's fighting capability to the limit, they could not sustain the fighting and had to find some place to get more resources. That's why they invaded southeast Asia. While they were doing that, they realized that the US became a big threat to their goal of total control of the Southeast Asia. that's why they decided to attack Pearl Harbor. By opening multiple fronts, Japan effectively signed its own death warrant. And all this was because of fighting in China. If China didn't resist like many thought, Japan could have finished the fighting in China much quicker and would have had no need to conquer southeast Asia so early. they could easily gather resources in China and use it to conquer Southeast Asia very easily. The fact that they could not do it demonstrates that China was effectively fighting them and cause their original plan to falter.

The China theater is absolutely critical to the world in WWII because fighting against the Chinese forces had absorbed so many Japan's war fighting capabilities, including troops and supplies. This means significantly less fighting capabilities of the Japanese on the Pacific islands. If you are familiar with the Pacific theater in the WWII, you'll know that most of these islands were not defended by a lot of Japanese troops. Although these soldiers fought bravely, they almost always faced overwhelming number of Allied troops. This is because the majority of the Japanese forces were trapped in China. Imagine what would happen if China gave up fighting easily as many have thought. Japan would be able to divert majority of its forces to fight in the Pacifics. This means hundreds of thousands, even millions, of troops defending an island, not mere thousands that faced Allied invasion. In reality, some of the most ferocious fighting in the WWII occurred on Pacific islands against the Japanese. Imagine the casualties that the Allied forces would have suffered if majority of the Japanese forces could pull out of China and concentrate on those islands IF China was not fighting effectively.

As you can see above, in the middle of the WWII (1939-1942), Japan and China fought huge battles in Central China totaling millions of troops and China was able to fight Japan to a stalemate and to keep huge amount of Japanese forces and supplies trapped in the area for years on end. This caused Japan dearly and made Japan unable to focus on the Pacific islands. This was the main reason that the Allied forces could advance in the Pacific relatively easily. After the defeat in the 1st campaign in the China/Burma/India theater, China almost completely lost contact with the outside world. At this point, the U.S. understood the importance of the China theater in their effort to defeat Japan in the Pacifics. So the US sent Air Corp to fly tens of thousands of sorties from India to China to keep the supply going so that China could continue fighting. From the effort made by the Allies to aid China, we can definitely tell how important the China theater was to the Allied forces in the WWII.
 
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rhino123

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The impression that Nationalists were not fighting came from decades of communist education on the Mainland, in an effort to glorify what the communists were doing and to villainize the Nationalists.

Couldn't agree with you more on most of what you have written, except for this paragraph. I think the communist did give credits to the nationalists army. I visited a museum in China (forgot where), and I did see the communist honoring soldiers and commanders of the nationalist army who are killed in action or in the war in it by giving them a place in the museum.

Also (although not much), there are movies and serials that are shot by the chinese that show the brotherhood between the nationalist army and the communist army.

Maybe in the beginning when the communists needed to paint the nationalist army as the 'enemy' because of the civil war whereby they needed local support. After they defeated the nationalist, they needed to paint the nationalist as 'evil' because at that time the communists are still not very stable in the country... also there are probability that the nationalists will re-attack China.

But as time passes and towards this decade, the communist had stopped such propaganda - because it served no purpose now and so we are seeing movies, serial, documentary, etc all over the TV and internet depicting the heroism of the nationalist soldiers as well as the communist forces in WWII.
 

vesicles

Colonel
I must disagree with the above poster who says if not for China Hawaii would be under Japanese rule....if not for the USA mobilizing and fighting the war in the pacific..and finally urging russia to take back manchuria, china would not exist as we know it.


The involvement of the US may have sped up the process, but it doesn't mean that Japan would have won without the US. By the time the US declared war on Japan and Germany in late 1941, Japan was already stretched to the limit in China. Majority of the Japanese troops were stuck in Central China with nowhere to go. Chinese forces fought the Japanese to a stalemate and Japan could not move a step further since 1939. Even in the early stage of the war when China was losing, Japan was suffering huge casualties in some of the biggest battles fought in the WWII, like battles of hundred regiments, battle of Taierzhuang and battle of Shanghai. Each one of these battles lasted months and each side suffered huge casualties. Although Japan eventually won these early battles, the consequence of their heavy casualties is still huge and caused them to change their original plan in the entire Asia.

Even IF China decided not to fight, the mere size of the country would mean Japan, as an occupation force would have to dedicate HUGE amount of forces just to secure the big cities and towns in China. At the time, China's population was 0.4 billion and had thousands of cities with populations over a million. Japan, a small nation, would have to dedicate majority of its armed forces, if not the majority of its population, just to guard these cities. Look at how much trouble Iraqi fighters are causing to the US occupation forces. And this is a large nation invading a small one. Imagine how much more trouble the Chinese would cause the Japanese occupation forces even IF the Chinese national forces decided not to fight. So China, by merely being there, would be enough to become a black hole for Japan in WWII. In fact, just like a black hole, China would suck anything and everything that Japan had. So sooner or later, Japan would have to pull out to preserve its forces. It might take more than 8 years, but the end result would be the same no matter what. This is what happens when a small nation trying to attack a huge one. Like that old Chinese saying, "a snake trying to swallow an elephant."

So to compare China to Yugoslavia is hugely inappropriate. I actually think China's role was not too unlike that of the Soviets. In Europe, Russia became a black hole for Nazi Germany and sucked all the resources in. China was doing the same thing to Japan.
 
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armchairwarrior

New Member
I must disagree with the above poster who says if not for China Hawaii would be under Japanese rule....if not for the USA mobilizing and fighting the war in the pacific..and finally urging russia to take back manchuria, china would not exist as we know it.

by the time the Japanese reach places like my city wenzhou, they were losing the war, their troops were getting destroy by the local militia and guerrillas, they were over stretch and fighting new troops, who has been waiting for the civil war that didn't yet in some parts. places like wenzhou is on the coast of china a large port city. their mighty navy couldn't even take it. china had no navy to oppose japan at the time. their troops were ineffective when faced with a determined opposition with good morale.

without china, russia would have a very difficult time with both germany and japan, they were to be link up to fight as planned. plus the russian far east was recently taken from china. their populations were tiny in the east of Siberia.
 

bobcou

New Member
Registered Member
It depends on what which, you have to remember the Japanese army had very deep competitive factions between the Regular Army and Navy. In which they had separate chains of command. Manchuria was done by the Land army, while Shanghai was done by the Navy.

In a way, it was a competition between them. In terms of naval, obviously the Chinese did nill to none to affect Japan. But in terms of land combat, then it would definitely rival near Russia figures if you include civilian deaths. There was a very deep rooted hatred between the Chinese and Japanese, like the Nazis and the Jews.

All in all though, if Japan didn't over extend itself by attacking Pearl Harbor, just like if Hitler didn't break the pact with Stalin, who knows, world may be different. But those are the "what-if" questions, so just leave it as that.

And if you are wondering, for most of the major battles, CCP did shit. Like what Tito did in Yugoslavia (in scale). KMT did all the blunt fighting, but as justice is determined by victors. CCP just happens to forget to at least credit all the "non-communist Chinese" people who died fighting the Japanese.
 

rhino123

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And if you are wondering, for most of the major battles, CCP did shit. Like what Tito did in Yugoslavia (in scale). KMT did all the blunt fighting, but as justice is determined by victors. CCP just happens to forget to at least credit all the "non-communist Chinese" people who died fighting the Japanese.

Disagreed with you here as I have pointed out in my previous post. The communist never forget what the nationalist had done for the country. And they credited them accordingly too. The reason for making the nationalist 'evil' and 'the enemy' at the beginning was because they needed local support for their war effort in the Chinese civil war... and later because the new government are still not too stable yet.
 

bobcou

New Member
Registered Member
Depends on what you mean by "support"
Cause the Museum in Beijing for the Chinese movement against Japanese aggression it only had about 1 portrait for the KMT while the rest is dedicated to CCP. I guess they can throw a few courtesy words to say thanks, politically. But this museum is dedicated to the war! No other museum in China has this museums scale cause it is by the Marco Polo Bridge.

And the scale of this entire museum talks about everything except the KMT. Okay, one cutout board out of 20. Rubbish.

Its a forgotten thing. Just like how hard the SS fought for Germany. Were they a beast? Yeah, but who is in power now? USA? Their enemy, their sacrifices are in vain. (militarily, not their policies) As are KMT being overshadowed.

If you ever get a chance to watch, ALL shows from WW2 now only shows CCP and CCP beating the snot out of KMT. Only one movie I have ever seen that was really sympathetic to the KMT was with Andy Lau from a Taiwanese movie that depicts the remnants of the KMT running to Burma.

CCP propaganda then and now just mixes the reality.
 

armchairwarrior

New Member
both the ccp and kmt didn't do as much as the local guerrillas and militia/warlords guys did.

the official armies were not that effective.
 
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