Should China respect sanctions on Iran?

ravenshield936

Banned Idiot
:eek:ffOn the matter of using "expeditionary forces" (i.e., of attacking other states) there is a short quote from an ancient source that I find extremely profound, because it is so simple, and yet seems to explain quite a bit. It is from the Book of Lord Shang (Shang Yang, a minister of the Qin state somewhere around the 4th century BC.

So, asymmetry in the foreign policy style of different states is an old matter. It can often be explained by geography.

@bladerunner: On the shenanigans between Taiwan and China over diplomatic recognition, this actually proves my point. It is not that China will not play hardball. The diplomatic isolation of Taiwan is testimony to this. But China is against ECONOMIC sanctions, even in this case. By the way, according to what I read several months ago, these shenanigans have been frozen by agreement between the PRC and Taiwan. This is something Ma claimed as one of his victories in negotiating with the mainland. This is why, after Costa Rica, no more countries in Latin America have switched over to the PRC, even when there are leftist governments in many of them. Paraguay, Nicaragua, and El Salvador, for example still recognize Taiwan. Yet, they all have pavilions at the world Expo (along with Taiwan itself).

wow
so true
now when i think about it, i get why switzerland is neutral:D
 

Scratch

Captain
It's not exactly about China here, but probably the thread that get's the closest to the article.
It's a nice and little longer piece from Time. Russia seems to try to find it's spot in a changing world, not sure were to go. They want thing from the west regarding cooperation apparently bad enough that they are willing to hurt other relations a little, i.e. approve the last sanctions against Iran, on the other hand they want to be so independant from the west to make completely their own decision at times. So, a firm position on Iran, or just a lip service to these? There's really not much in between.
While Russia wants more reconition in the west, it can't really afford to get there by loosing influence elsewhere to China I guess, and at the same time they can't really afford another problen in the south with an Iran pissed of by Russia agreeing to sanctions.
So, S-300 SAMs? yes, no, maybe. Energy cooperation, yes ...

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Is Russia's Backing of Iran Sanctions Starting to Fray?

By Simon Shuster / Moscow Thursday, Jul. 15, 2010

For a couple of weeks in June, it seemed like Russia's stance on Iran was finally coming into line with that of the U.S. President Barack Obama, in one of the biggest achievements so far of his foreign policy, had convinced Russia to support a new round of U.N. sanctions, approved on June 9, meant to stop Iran from building a nuclear bomb. [...]

On Wednesday, Energy Minister Sergei Shmatko held a meeting in Moscow with Iranian Oil Minister Massoud Mir Kazemi, and afterwards Shmatko announced that Russia was ready to deliver fuel and oil products to Iran. "The sanctions cannot stop us," he declared. And it is true: the latest round of U.N. sanctions does not forbid fuel sales to Iran, but the unilateral sanctions imposed by the U.S. and Europe do. Russia's decision therefore still has a touch of defiance and seems aimed at demonstrating its independence from the West on the Iran dilemma. [...]

The following day, Russia took this initiative further by suggesting it might still sell S-300 missile systems to Iran under an existing contract. [...]On June 18, about a week after the U.N. sanctions were adopted, Russia appeared to concede. "Moscow believes that the sanctions resolution clearly forbids the sale of the S-300 system to Iran," Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Denisov told Russia's state news agency RIA Novosti that day. Later in June, experts from Russia's Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation also concluded that these weapons could not be sold to Iran under the new U.N. sanctions. The Israelis and the U.S. breathed a sigh of relief. [...]

"The final decision on signing or dropping the contract must be made by the President," [...]

At the same time, Medvedev realizes that sidelining Iran would come at a serious price, not least of all for Russia's budget. The S-300 contract is worth around $800 million, and if Russia fails to honor it, Iran has said it would impose a penalty that experts estimate at another $400 million. The Islamic Republic could also refuse to buy any more military products from Russia in the future, leading to an estimated loss of up to $500 million per year, according to an investigative report published on June 30 by the daily newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta. The report also noted that China, Russia's emerging rival in the arms trade, would be happy to take its place.

On the security front, Moscow also has a lot to lose. Insurgents and advisers from Arab states are regularly caught in the mountains of the North Caucasus, the hub of the Muslim insurgency fighting to turn part of Russia into an Islamic caliphate. No evidence has ever surfaced of Iran financing these insurgents. But if it begins to count Russia as one of its enemies — as it had threatened to do in the lead-up to the June U.N. sanctions vote — experts say that Iran could throw its weight behind jihadis in Russia, just as it does in Israel for terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. Likewise in Central Asia, a patchwork of predominantly Muslim states, Iran could position itself against Russia as a rival for influence, particularly in Tajikistan, which shares strong cultural and linguistic ties with Iran.

"So if it wants, Iran has many ways of inflicting damage on Russia, of shifting the security landscape in Central Asia and the Caucasus in a way that could destabilize the region," says Fyodor Lukyanov, political analyst and editor of the journal Russia in Global Affairs. "It has not yet done that, but if there is a radical change in relations with Russia, it can." Lukyanov says that Russia has already gone as far as it can in alienating Iran to please the U.S, and Obama will need to offer Russia some major rewards if he wants an even tougher stand on the nuclear issue. But with Russia now appearing to backpedal on its support for sanctions, such rewards might be necessary just to get the Kremlin to keep the promises it's already made.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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The game is definitely afoot.

Most of this has been a dance with the steps well known in advance. Sanctions were agreed at the UN as both Russia and China knew very well, that the US and EU would impose its own unilateral sanctions anyway, but, by agreeing weaker sanctions in the UN beforehand, the impact of them would be undermined significantly.

It now becomes a test of strength and wills between the competitors and a test in circumstances hardly ideal for the US and EU side. The kind of unilateral sanctions imposed are fine, if you are king of the walk and masters of all you survey. If however you are seriously in debt and stuck in a weak post recession recovery, plus dependant on your competitors for debt funding and critical resource supplies, then the position is far weaker.
Would for instance the EU really ban dealing with Russian Energy Giants like Gazprom for dealing with Iran, if this meant no winter gas supplies?

The US also opens itself to strategic vulnerability by trying to target banks that do business with Iran. Such a move is only likely to accelerate the pace at which such trades are dealt with in non dollar currencies and outside the dollar denominated/US banking system. This is a very real risk given that the UN and other International Institutions are now seriously questioning the ability of the dollar to act as the Global reserve currency and warming towards the IMF's SDR instead.

The danger for the kid who turns round and tells all his friends that he does not want to play with them unless they play by his rules, is that his friends may be quite happy to not have to play with him anymore.
 

Scratch

Captain
Good points there.

I guess China really is in a position to play that game, since their economy is quite in shape and things are going ok. China has also enough means to get the international attention they want.
Russia on the other hand is in a weaker spot against the west I would say. Mevedev really wants / needs the west help modernizing his country in several areas. And Russia's only really strong card is energy (gas / oil). They can't really stop selling it as a punishment, since the economy depends too much on it.

So, yes, western countries really have to take that one, momentarily hurtfull, step away from too muchg depandence on foreign energy / financing.

In the end there won't probably be any actully hurting things for Iran, since they'll most like find what they want somewhwere.
 

solarz

Brigadier
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OTTAWA - Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon says Canada will impose tougher sanctions on Iran as part of an international campaign against that country's nuclear ambitions.

He says the measures aren't intended to punish the people of Iran but to send a message to ``the aggressive and irresponsible government in Iran.''

The new sanctions will include a ban on any new Canadian investment in Iran’s oil and gas sector or government securities and restrictions on exporting goods that could be used in nuclear programs.

The West accuses Iran of seeking to develop nuclear weapons, but Tehran says its nuclear program is only for peaceful electricity production.

Iranian banks will also will be barred from opening branches in Canada and Canadian banks will not be able to set up operations in Iran.

The European Union has announced a new round of sanctions to curb oil investment and cut exports of “dual-use” goods that could be employed by the nuclear industry.

Cannon says Tehran has flouted United Nations efforts to rein in its nuclear program.

``The acts of Iran and the aggressive talk are an affront to Canada's standards and its desire to maintain nuclear safety.''

He rejected Iran's claims about peaceful power production.

``The actions of Iran are bringing it closer and closer to producing nuclear weapons which pose a threat,'' he said.

Last month, Iran announced it had produced 20 kilograms of enriched uranium.

Cannon said the international community is united on the need to curb Iran's nuclear efforts.

"No state can threaten international peace and security without consequences.''

More oil for China?
 

cloyce

Junior Member
Maybe.

But one thing is sure. Tehran will got screwed if they go on with their nuclear adventure.


I have one question.

When will US Navy receive their first bunch of F-35C? Last time I read something about, it was around 2012.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Maybe.

But one thing is sure. Tehran will got screwed if they go on with their nuclear adventure.


I have one question.

When will US Navy receive their first bunch of F-35C? Last time I read something about, it was around 2012.

Seems to me they're more likely to be screwed if they *don't* have nukes. Case in point: Iraq vs North Korea
 

cloyce

Junior Member
@solarz

I think you are wrong. Last time, everyone have been caught unprepared.
This time the balance of power is different. Plus Iran is not Iraq, Iran is twice the size of Iraq, and it's much more prepared regarding defence.

Other powers like Russia, China and EU won't allow any further american military intervention in the middle east.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
@solarz

I think you are wrong. Last time, everyone have been caught unprepared.
This time the balance of power is different. Plus Iran is not Iraq, Iran is twice the size of Iraq, and it's much more prepared regarding defence.

Other powers like Russia, China and EU won't allow any further american military intervention in the middle east.

Israel will though, with the Americans looking the other way after providing them with the necessary ordnance
 

cloyce

Junior Member
Israel will though, with the Americans looking the other way after providing them with the necessary ordnance

2 years ago, I read an article about US new bunker buster bomb.
Capable of penetrating iranian super hardened underground facilities.

But that bomb could be dropped only by B-52/B-1 size bomber, so how could Israel drop that bomb onto Iran? I don't think F-15 will be able to carry that ordinance.
 
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