Should China get su-35bm

Longaxe said:

The ONLY reason that China suspended imports of the su-27 is because China has a nasty habit of copying a foreign design and then saying it’s their own. China prefers buggy domestic planes to mediocre Russian aircraft. I don’t think China is going to war any time so, and feels that it can afford to purchase domestic in order to build its aircraft industry which is still not able to completely build a modern aircraft with out foreign help. The fact that they are still making j-8II and other mig-21 derivatives shows just how far behind they are. Those aircraft should have been nearing retirement in the late 1970’s. It is funny to hear how great j-8II is when the only thing the plane has going for it over a Boeing 747 is its speed. It is doubtful that the j-10 is the next best thing since sliced bread some people say “it won 5 vs 0 against the su-27â€; however the statement is without any context made by extreme nationalist trying to push their aircraft. How many fights did it take to get that result? It doesn’t seem logical, that the j-10 should have a consistent advantage over the su-27 even the downgraded crap version.:rofl:

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are u begging for a ban? one more "trash china's military" post like that and ur going to gollevainens office. since your post rather resembles one by vincelee, ill go ahead and ignore it.

in the early nineties, china's indegeous aviation industry was not that great. so to speed up modernization, they took the easy way ouyt and bought the su-27, which was one of the most capable and feared aircraft in 1992. to russh things more, they signes a contract for the j-11, su-27sk. but the sk was not multirole, and thus fell below plaaf standards.

the j-11 deal didnt go much better. the russian imported parts were crap(mediocre streghth and not easy to handle. and this coupled with china's lack of advanced aircraft assembly knowledge led to serious quality problems on early j-11s. plus they wernt multirole either.

the su-30 was a plaaf hope to obtain a good multirole aircraft. the mkk and mkk2 were good aircraft, but ultimately did not have the extensive A2g abilites promised by the russians.

and thus began a period for the plaaf of laying off of russian planes entirely, chosing to focus on indegedous designs. the j-10 had finally come out by then, but the chinese still weren experienced enough to completly sperate from russia(al-31, arsenal hms). of course, now by 2005, the chiense have developed their own advanced avionic equipment, weapons, and engines. immensly advanced upgrades made on the j-7 and j-8 allowed them to near the performance of early f-16/f-15 models. fc-1 was another example of chinas ability to develop advanced fighters, coupled with a growing ambition.

so who knows what j-xx holds? but we can sure china's quit doing russian drugs and instead turning to itself for help.

Longaxe said:

The ONLY reason that China suspended imports of the su-27 is because China has a nasty habit of copying a foreign design and then saying it’s their own. China prefers buggy domestic planes to mediocre Russian aircraft. I don’t think China is going to war any time so, and feels that it can afford to purchase domestic in order to build its aircraft industry which is still not able to completely build a modern aircraft with out foreign help. The fact that they are still making j-8II and other mig-21 derivatives shows just how far behind they are. Those aircraft should have been nearing retirement in the late 1970’s. It is funny to hear how great j-8II is when the only thing the plane has going for it over a Boeing 747 is its speed. It is doubtful that the j-10 is the next best thing since sliced bread some people say “it won 5 vs 0 against the su-27”; however the statement is without any context made by extreme nationalist trying to push their aircraft. How many fights did it take to get that result? It doesn’t seem logical, that the j-10 should have a consistent advantage over the su-27 even the downgraded crap version.:rofl:

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China already paid for parts to the 200 su-27sk planes, but it stopped using the Russian ones. It replaced them with all domestic parts. Make a note of this. They have to pay more financially to build J-11B, because they are essentailly paying for the Russian parts and the Chinese parts that replaced them. As for buggy domestic planes, it's funny that you said that. Do you realize China has been providing parts for Boeing or Airbus for the last few years? The equipments it uses are actually superior to the ones used in the original su-27 assembley line that got transferred over. If there is one thing that pla has been complaining about, it would be the quality of the parts coming from Russia. The Russians seemed to put even less effort into producing the parts for J-11s than for their own su-27.

Don't believe me, check what sukhoi said:

"J-11 “Indigenization” This Sukhoi official was also willing to talk about the PLA’s desire to “indigenize” the J-11 with substantial new Chinese-made components, like radar, engines and avionics. He said that the PLA was capable of doing all these things but that it would take the PLA “ten years” to realize an indigenized J-11. But when they did so, he expected that the PLA would also sell this fighter. This new J-11 is expected to carry PLA-made weapons like the SD-10 active-guided AAM, precision attack weapons, radar and a new “glass” cockpit of digitized avionics. The main goal of the program is to make a fighter capable of both fighter and attack missions—something the baseline Su-27SK/J-11 cannot do. This individual also confirmed comments by a Sukhoi official at the 2002 Zhuhai show that Shenyang J-11s have a better production finish than those made at the KnAAPO factory in Komsomolsk."



J-8II is based on Mig-23. It also has modern avionics, BVR capability + refueling probe now, so you really can't compare it to Mig-21s. Then again, I'm not saying it's a good plane. It's unfortunate SAC is still producing it.

As for J-10 beating su-27, it's very well stated. In fact, J-10 has not lost any air combat to flankers in general. What advantage do you think su-27 has over J-10? Weapons? J-10 actually has a BVR missile, which is not present on su-27. Btw, SD-10 has superior motor than R-77 equipped on su-30. avionics? su-27 has an all mechanical cockpit. It didn't even have a modern cockpit until the smk upgrade. radar? com'on now, J-10 has much better multi-tracking and engagement capability. RCS? su-27's RCS is huge. manuverability? stated in two Chinese military magazines that J-10 has better manuverability. Otherwise, how can it beat su-27 over and over again in WVR?

Take of your green CCP tinted eye shades, I think the jury is still out on the j-10, at least till more information about its flight envelope comes out. All we know for sure is that it probably has a better roll rate then the su-27, since it has a single engine. The j-10 is a 1980’s design. It has a canard, and studies have proven in the late 1980’s that canards are not worth while, which is why aircraft designed after the 1980’s for the most part lack canards. Little hard data exist on the j-10; however there are issues with its intake. A su-30 is a way better aircraft, bigger radar more multi-role.

Longaxe said:

Take of your green CCP tinted eye shades, I think the jury is still out on the j-10, at least till more information about its flight envelope comes out. All we know for sure is that it probably has a better roll rate then the su-27, since it has a single engine. The j-10 is a 1980’s design. It has a canard, and studies have proven in the late 1980’s that canards are not worth while, which is why aircraft designed after the 1980’s for the most part lack canards. Little hard data exist on the j-10; however there are issues with its intake. A su-30 is a way better aircraft, bigger radar more multi-role.

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my ccp tainted eye shade? do you think I work for the communist?

Anyhow, do a little research on the confrontations between j-10 and su-27 on your own. Even the Western sites have documented J-10 winning dogfights against su-27


"The PLAAF expects to have 50 J-10s by 2005. The J-10, displayed at an air show in May, has received rave reviews from the pilots flying them. Wing Commander Wang Yunhui, a special-grade Su-27 pilot, praised J-10 aircraft and admitted, "During three rounds of "dog fight" in the mid-air, his Su-27 had lost to a J-10 fighter" (Hong Kong Sing Tao Jih Pao 29 May)."

if you are going to discount canard, are you also going to discount its variable intake, it's delta-wing and most importantly, the TVC engine it just got?

As for J-10 vs su-30mkk, they both have their roles in plaaf. Su-30 and future J-11B are likely to be more multi-role planes, due to their greater payload, hardpoints and operation range. However, J-10 has proved itself within China already as the air superiority fighter, so that's why it's getting much more orders from PLA (50 as opposed to like 20 for J-11B).

As for radar, I've already posted enough articles to show that J-10's radar has better tracking and engagement numbers. It's detection range is about equal to su-30mkk despite having much smaller nose and a much lower RCS.

The intake sucks it has vibration problems; because the gun is located in it, which is why they had to add those braces. Really dumb design if you ask me, if that isn’t a bug I don’t know what is. A larger radar is always better if they are equal tech. A plane with a bigger nose is more upgradeable. There is nothing stealthy about the j-10 look at its intake, I am sure those braces really help its RCS. I doubt its RCS is all that much lower then the su-27’s. The j-10 is really Chinas first semi-modern mostly indigenous fighter design; you really think that it is going to be the best thing ever? I wouldn’t put to much stock in what a PLAAF pilot or the media says about the capabilities of the j-10. The j-10 is Chinas new one trick pony; even if it sucks they are going to brag about it, because that is what militaries do when they get new hardware. Look at how the US brags about the f-22… Stop living in fantasy land.

Longaxe said:

The intake sucks it has vibration problems; because the gun is located in it, which is why they had to add those braces. Really dumb design if you ask me, if that isn’t a bug I don’t know what is. A larger radar is always better if they are equal tech. A plane with a bigger nose is more upgradeable. There is nothing stealthy about the j-10 look at its intake, I am sure those braces really help its RCS. I doubt its RCS is all that much lower then the su-27’s. The j-10 is really Chinas first semi-modern mostly indigenous fighter design; you really think that it is going to be the best thing ever? I wouldn’t put to much stock in what a PLAAF pilot or the media says about the capabilities of the j-10. The j-10 is Chinas new one trick pony; even if it sucks they are going to brag about it, because that is what militaries do when they get new hardware. Look at how the US brags about the f-22… Stop living in fantasy land.

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Is this a joke? Su-27 class fighters are heavy fighters, so they are supposed to have bigger nose, larger payload and huge RCS. F-15's RCS is like 25 m^2. Su-27's claimed RCS is 10, but I think it probably is higher than that, since it's like F-15. Whereas F-16's RCS is generally listed as 1 or 1.5 and J-10's shape is generally compared to F-16, so it should be 1 (it has RAM coating and such). By my calculation, the RCS of su-27 is probably 10 times that of J-10. That reduces the effective detection range of its radar significantly. 10^0.25 = 1.8 times. The nose diameter of J-10 vs flankers is about 700 mm vs 960 mm. 960/700 = 1.37. 1.37^2 times the number antenna. I'm not 100% sure on this, but the increase in range would be either (1.37^2)^0.5 =1.37 or (1.37^2)^0.25 = 1.17

Overall, J-10 is just a better airframe. Although, I'm still wishing for a even bigger nose in the next design. They already increased the nose for JF-17, doing the same for J-10 shouldn't be too hard.

As for the intake, it's a variable intake. It seems to work pretty well at fast speed, since J-10 flies circles around su-27. Besides, the next variant of J-10 is getting DSI.

Yes, it is a one trick pony for now. If it was intended for attacks, then it would get the JH-7A avionics package.

The F16 has better RAM and gold in its canopy, its intake and body shape is stealthier too. A lot of the j-10 looks like it is medal as well. Maybe later versions of the j10 will be better but its RCS is likely between 2 and 7.

Longaxe said:

The F16 has better RAM and gold in its canopy, its intake and body shape is stealthier too. A lot of the j-10 looks like it is medal as well. Maybe later versions of the j10 will be better but its RCS is likely between 2 and 7.

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The earlier F-16's definitely do not have better RAM coating than J-10 and its RCS was still 1 to 1.5. As for J-10, most of its exterior is composite. You know I'm using a good comparison here between J-10 and F-16, but you are too afraid of admitting it, so you just keep on insulting J-10's intake and such. J-10's airframe is based on Lavi, which is supposed to advance from F-16's earlier blocks. Do you really think they'd make it less stealthy? Or maybe you are an stealth expert and know more about planes than the developers of Lavi and J-10? As for 2-7 for RCS, Mig-29's RCS is 5 and it is a twin-engined plane with no stealth feature at all. How can J-10's RCS be higher than 5? Do you need me to give you a diagram of the size of J-10 compared to some of the other fighters in plaaf?

First of all a RCS around 1 is for new block F16’s, I remember in the 1980’s people saying the RCS was a lot higher. Some major changes to the front on RCS of the F16 have been made, like putting a gold coating in the canopy. That Change alone reduces RCS a lot. Not all radar absorbent materials are the same. The j-10 does not have a RCS of 1.

typhuang, your a mod, so bann this guy!!! no use argueing with him. hes clearly made a huge amount of unbacked critism towards chinas planes, and insults china, its abilities, and people in the process. he sounds exactly like vincelee!!! plus, he threw the entire thread off topic!!

the j-10 is by all means comparable the the f-16 block 40-50. its rcs is very small, bcause the plane is made out of polymers and it small aswell. the j-10s rcs is unknown to us currently, so longaxe, stop making up this bs. chinese engineers know how to design planes, at least better than u. the braces help strenth, even if they do look ugly.