Should China get su-35bm

tphuang

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MOSCOW, October 17 (RIA Novosti) - Russian aircraft manufacturer Sukhoi expects its cooperation with China to increase following the opening of its Beijing office Monday, the head of the company said.

"We intend to continue cooperation in supplying modernized Su-35 (Flanker) planes, in addition to other updated fourth-generation aircraft," Mikhail Pogosyan said at the opening ceremony.

He also said the maintenance and modernization of aircraft supplied to China would be conducted more efficiently now that the Beijing office was open.
Clearly, the Russians are trying to sell su-35s to China. It remains to be seen whether the su-35 mentionned is su-27m, basically similar to su-30mki with canard and bars radar and 12 hard points. Or maybe su-35bm, which has AL-41F engine (probably 3D tvc) with Zhuk-msf or irbis radar, but no canard.
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Sukhoi is apparently examining the Su-35BM as the next development step, although this variant has little in common with the previous Su-35 and its airframe is closer to the Su-27 (without canards). The most visible signs of progress are in the systems area, with glass cockpit displays, an Irbis radar and the Knibny EW system The aircraft is to be powered by the Saturn AL-41F1, which produces just under 140kN of thrust. Its weapon systems, which were shown on a Su-35BM model at the Dubai Air Show in December 2003, include the Onyx/Yakhont 3M55A anti-ship missile and the Ks-172, an air-to-air guided missile with an extremely long-range.
It sounds quite lethal with the irbis radar and especially the anti-ship missile and the long range A2A missile. I guess this is what Kanwa meant in its article titled "SUKHOI REINFORCES SU35’S ATTACK CAPABILITY". According to Richard Fisher, this is a 300 Km long range AAM.

Personally, I think that if China can get su-35bm, it should go for it. It's definitely better than anything we have right now. Even with all the upgrades, J-11B is still probably only at the level of su-27smk.


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Su-35BM

In December 2003, after the Su-27SM modernization program had been deemed a success, Russia announced that it would proceed with the so-called "big modernization" program. The modernized aircraft is called the Su-35BM (also T-10BM) by Sukhoi, but it is not yet known what name will be adopted by the Russian Air Force. The Su-35BM program is to be a deep modernization of existing airframes, not newly produced aircraft.

The main new feature of the aircraft is to be a new radar. It has not yet been decided whether it will be the Phazotron-NIIR N031 Sokol or the Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis. The first is actually the well-known Zhuk radar with a passively scanned phased array, while the Irbis is a version of the N011M Bars-M, also with a passively scanned phased array. In 2003 a new phased-array antenna was tested for Indian Su-30MKI aircraft, but it achieved only +/-45 degrees of horizontal field of view, instead of the planned +/-70 degrees. The remaining angle of 25 degrees was achieved mechanically via a hydraulic servo, which was an unsatisfactory solution. The Irbis is to differ from the Bars-M by having quick servos that are tightly synchronized with the radar electronics to achieve the 70 degrees of scan on either side of the fighter's axis. Sources says that NIIP's solution is preferred by the Russian Air Force, since NIIP radar sets were all proven in service. The radar is to have similar capabilities to the N011M Bars-M. The detection range of a fighter airplane (170 km) and a destroyer-sized naval target (300 km) more or less matches the N011M's performance.

The Su-35BM is also to receive a small radar in a tail "stinger" to monitor the rear hemisphere. It is to be a NIIR N012 Kopyo-DL with a passively scanned phased-array antenna with a range of about 50-70 km. The unique arrangement indicates that Russia does not plan to rely as heavily on data exchange networks to maintain situational awareness, although the Aist data-exchange system for the Air Force is under development.

The weapons set for the Su-35BM is to be the same as the Su-27SM. Among the new weapons in development is a long-range air-to-air missile with required range of 300 km. Since the range is beyond radar range, external information is required to prepare the missile for launch. Two or four such missiles are to be carried. The missile is to be developed from either the Novator KS-172 technology demonstrator or the Vympel R-37M missile, also proposed for the MiG-31. Sukhoi prefers the first solution, and one can say that it is part of Sukhoi's long-standing strategy to prompt the Air Force to "kill" the MiG-31s and replace them with the Su-27 family of aircraft.

The Su-35BM is also to receive a totally new self-protection system. It was developed by KNIRTI (Zhukov near Kaluga, Russia) and is designated the L-175M Khibiny-M. It has an integrated electronic-support-measures system of high accuracy, a separate display in the cockpit, a digital processor, and an integrated active radio-frequency jammer with pods on the wingtips. Probably in the future, the aircraft will also receive a missile-approach-warning system and a towed decoy (for example, the Lobushka). The aircraft will have RAM coatings and some internal changes to increase stealth features, such as a new windshield and canopy of slightly different shape covered with radar-absorbent material.

The modernized Su-27SM, together with the modernized Su-25SM and Su-24M, will form the core of the Russian Air Force for the next two decades, and this could lead to the complete withdrawal of MiG-29 aircraft, which are not going to be modernized. While the MiG-29SMT represents the ultimate modernization variant for this undervalued aircraft, without dividing the upgrade into phases, it could not be presently afforded by Russia. The Sukhoi approach, with "small" and "big" modernizations, was much more realistic and ultimately triumphant.
 
Last edited:

Gauntlet

Junior Member
Well, why not?

Buying modernized Flanker-Es from Russia would most probably cover Chinas need for advanced figthers fast. Having a mixed fleet of modern Flankers, J-11 and J-10 is a good mix if you ask me.
 

Red not Dead

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tphuang said:
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Clearly, the Russians are trying to sell su-35s to China. It remains to be seen whether the su-35 mentionned is su-27m, basically similar to su-30mki with canard and bars radar and 12 hard points. Or maybe su-35bm, which has AL-41F engine (probably 3D tvc) with Zhuk-msf or irbis radar, but no canard.
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It sounds quite lethal with the irbis radar and especially the anti-ship missile and the long range A2A missile. I guess this is what Kanwa meant in its article titled "SUKHOI REINFORCES SU35’S ATTACK CAPABILITY". According to Richard Fisher, this is a 300 Km long range AAM.

Personally, I think that if China can get su-35bm, it should go for it. It's definitely better than anything we have right now. Even with all the upgrades, J-11B is still probably only at the level of su-27smk.


more on su-35bm, this is taken from
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Su-35BM

In December 2003, after the Su-27SM modernization program had been deemed a success, Russia announced that it would proceed with the so-called "big modernization" program. The modernized aircraft is called the Su-35BM (also T-10BM) by Sukhoi, but it is not yet known what name will be adopted by the Russian Air Force. The Su-35BM program is to be a deep modernization of existing airframes, not newly produced aircraft.

The main new feature of the aircraft is to be a new radar. It has not yet been decided whether it will be the Phazotron-NIIR N031 Sokol or the Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis. The first is actually the well-known Zhuk radar with a passively scanned phased array, while the Irbis is a version of the N011M Bars-M, also with a passively scanned phased array. In 2003 a new phased-array antenna was tested for Indian Su-30MKI aircraft, but it achieved only +/-45 degrees of horizontal field of view, instead of the planned +/-70 degrees. The remaining angle of 25 degrees was achieved mechanically via a hydraulic servo, which was an unsatisfactory solution. The Irbis is to differ from the Bars-M by having quick servos that are tightly synchronized with the radar electronics to achieve the 70 degrees of scan on either side of the fighter's axis. Sources says that NIIP's solution is preferred by the Russian Air Force, since NIIP radar sets were all proven in service. The radar is to have similar capabilities to the N011M Bars-M. The detection range of a fighter airplane (170 km) and a destroyer-sized naval target (300 km) more or less matches the N011M's performance.

The Su-35BM is also to receive a small radar in a tail "stinger" to monitor the rear hemisphere. It is to be a NIIR N012 Kopyo-DL with a passively scanned phased-array antenna with a range of about 50-70 km. The unique arrangement indicates that Russia does not plan to rely as heavily on data exchange networks to maintain situational awareness, although the Aist data-exchange system for the Air Force is under development.

The weapons set for the Su-35BM is to be the same as the Su-27SM. Among the new weapons in development is a long-range air-to-air missile with required range of 300 km. Since the range is beyond radar range, external information is required to prepare the missile for launch. Two or four such missiles are to be carried. The missile is to be developed from either the Novator KS-172 technology demonstrator or the Vympel R-37M missile, also proposed for the MiG-31. Sukhoi prefers the first solution, and one can say that it is part of Sukhoi's long-standing strategy to prompt the Air Force to "kill" the MiG-31s and replace them with the Su-27 family of aircraft.

The Su-35BM is also to receive a totally new self-protection system. It was developed by KNIRTI (Zhukov near Kaluga, Russia) and is designated the L-175M Khibiny-M. It has an integrated electronic-support-measures system of high accuracy, a separate display in the cockpit, a digital processor, and an integrated active radio-frequency jammer with pods on the wingtips. Probably in the future, the aircraft will also receive a missile-approach-warning system and a towed decoy (for example, the Lobushka). The aircraft will have RAM coatings and some internal changes to increase stealth features, such as a new windshield and canopy of slightly different shape covered with radar-absorbent material.

The modernized Su-27SM, together with the modernized Su-25SM and Su-24M, will form the core of the Russian Air Force for the next two decades, and this could lead to the complete withdrawal of MiG-29 aircraft, which are not going to be modernized. While the MiG-29SMT represents the ultimate modernization variant for this undervalued aircraft, without dividing the upgrade into phases, it could not be presently afforded by Russia. The Sukhoi approach, with "small" and "big" modernizations, was much more realistic and ultimately triumphant.


Loool who wrote this? Mig not going to be modernized? They already have retrofitted 25 migs in krasnodar(sk)? And actually the mig 29 are the most prized by western sources. Dassault have expressed the desire to acquire the licence of the mig's airframe in order to incorporate it on a new low cost project. I'm suprized Russia doesn't want any "Point fighter" anymore since thr russian territory is so huge.
 

adeptitus

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tphuang said:
Probably in the future, the aircraft will also receive a missile-approach-warning system and a towed decoy (for example, the Lobushka). The aircraft will have RAM coatings and some internal changes to

Towed decoy on a fighter aircraft? @_@
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
i think sukoi realized that china was pretty displeased with the mkks strike power, so it built a new one.

well, this seems liek a great deal. now the only thing is, do you opt for canards or for tvc? the tvc gives u greater mnuverability, but are more expensive and difficult to maintian. the canrds also improve manuverability, and are easy to use.

perhaps china will opt for different varients of the plane. the su-35 verson with canards can be a naval straike fighter, and another version with tvc can be an air superiority fighter/ground attack.

china has been eyeing the al-41 for a while now
new radar!!!:D :D :nana:
 

tphuang

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adeptitus said:
Towed decoy on a fighter aircraft? @_@
not sure, but it seemed like they are trying to make it more stealthy.
 

tphuang

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  苏霍伊境外第一个办事处设在中国,并向中国大力推介“苏-33â€舰载战斗机和“四代半â€战斗机“苏-35â€,同时也希望进入中国民用航空市场

  苏霍伊来华志向远大

  国际先驱导报记者赵嘉麟报道 俄罗斯航空制造业巨头“苏霍伊â€公司10月17日在北京
设立办事处。这是该公司在俄罗斯境外开设的第一个办事处。

  “苏霍伊â€总经理波戈相说,此举是公司迈出的“战略性的一步â€,将有助于公司更加灵活地解决产品生产、技术改进和售后服务等问题。

  资料显示,2000~2005年苏霍伊公司作战飞机的产值占全世界作战飞机总产值的15%,其出口额占世界的25%(包括在国外的特许生产)。

  推介舰载战斗机和“苏-35â€

  波戈相对《国际先驱导报》表示,“苏霍伊â€将参加明年的珠海国际航展,并推介“苏- 30MKKâ€战斗机、“苏-27â€战斗机、“苏-33â€舰载战斗机和“苏-35â€战斗机项目。“所有这些项目前景都不错,对中方来说也不陌生。因此,我们参展的目的在于进一步开展合作â€。

  在上述机型中,他特别提到希望对华提供被业界认为是“四代半â€战斗机的“苏- 35â€。“我们不只满足提供‘苏-27’和‘苏-30’。对华提供第四代战机是很大的一步,但不是最后一步â€。但波戈相没有透露具体合作项目,称“将在双方达成协议后作详细说明,这样才有意义â€。同时,他表示相信公司研制的第五代战机“也会令中国伙伴感兴趣â€。

  波戈相说,与中方开展合作不仅是从公司的层面出发,更是从两国元首所倡导的俄中战略协作伙伴关系高度出发。“这种战略协作高度也体现在发展军事合作和军事技术合作上。比如今年就举行了俄中首次联合军事演习。与中国的军技合作机制是我们与所有伙伴军技合作机制中最高效的之一â€。

  进军中国民航业

  波戈相对《国际先驱导报》透露,除军用航空领域外,“苏霍伊â€还将计划开发中国的民用航空市场,“发展方向包括提供教练机、水上飞机、支线飞机等â€。

  其中,他特别提到了“别-103â€六座水上飞机和“苏-80â€支线飞机。“别-103â€的其机动性很好,可在中国南部水域宽广地区使用。“苏-80â€、支线飞机的飞行高度是8000米,最大航程可达2000公里,相信在中国能有需求,波戈相表示。

  据中国航空工业发展研究中心预测,未来20年中国支线飞机需求量为705架;巴西航空工业公司预测未来20年中国支线飞机需求量为635架。而中国民航市场的大蛋糕,对于正着手进行航空业改革的俄罗斯不啻为难得的机遇。俄罗斯媒体报道称,普京总统已下令组建大型航空制造集团,以增强俄罗斯在世界航空市场的竞争力。

  波戈相表示,在俄罗斯,航空业将不仅被作为单独的领域来对待,“而将成为带动整个俄罗斯工业发展的火车头â€。据他介绍,俄方采取的措施包括增加军用及民用航空项目的研发投资等。其中,2006年联邦预算用于航空业发展的拨款比2005年增长了1.5倍。

  他还高兴地对记者说,由苏霍伊参与的区域航线飞机(即中型干线飞机)项目被列入2006~2007年的规划中,并自信地表示,“不论航空业结构如何变化,苏霍伊将始终处于领跑地位â€。

  副总经理负责中国业务

  波戈相对《国际先驱导报》说,他已委派公司副总经理专门负责中国业务,公司将与中方讨论建立服务中心等问题。“服务中心不仅仅是提供售后服务,还包括培训等等。我们希望缩短零件供应时间,降低生产成本,提高产品可靠性,以满足客户需要â€。

  波戈相表示,目前公司的中国伙伴包括飞机制造商以及售后服务单位,“希望未来还能拥有在中国推广产品的合作伙伴â€。

  他坦承,“苏霍伊â€开发中国市场过程中,在缩短决策时间、采取更灵活的谈判原则,以及制定5~10年的长期规划等方面的还有待改进余地。

  据波戈相介绍,“苏霍伊â€与中方的合作已持续了15年多,最初从提供苏-27开始,之后是“苏-30MKKâ€。“接下来的合作方向主要是对已提供的飞机进行现代化改进。我们与中方合作伙伴和客户关系密切,而且这种合作具有战略高度â€,波戈相说。

  他表示,“苏霍伊â€在中国积累了很好的合作经验,“这使我们能够乐观地看待发展前景â€。“我们尊重中国同事,彼此建立了相互理解,我们与中方大量科研专家如同一个团队那样工作â€。

  链接:能杀“回马枪â€的“苏-35â€

  西方国家空军飞行员中有这样一个逸闻:有人问“ ‘苏-27’和‘苏-35’有什么区别吗â€,回答是“如果发生空战,在你看见它之后它把你击落了,那么它就是‘苏-27’。如果你还没有看见它,它就把你击落了,那它一定是‘苏-35’ â€。

  “苏-35â€是在“苏-27â€基础上改动较大的多用途战斗机。俄方称其与美国的“F -22â€、欧洲的“台风â€战斗机属于同一等级。“苏-35â€与“苏-30â€模拟空战表演中,前者以水平方向的“超眼镜蛇â€机动,将机头对准后者“急射â€而取胜。“超眼镜蛇â€机动的诞生说明,现代空战已经不是过去的从尾后攻击的传统战法,而是多方向攻击。

  “苏-35â€装备新型机载电子设备,具有空空、空地双重功能抗干扰能力,对战斗机这类目标的发现距离为165~245公里,对轰炸机、预警机或大型运输机的发现距离可达400公里,可在200公里距离上发现地面目标,同时可跟踪20个空中目标,指挥导弹同时攻击8个目标。

  “苏-35â€战斗机首次采用了后视火控雷达技术。此类雷达装在飞机尾锥内,可引导俄专门研制的“Р-73Eâ€后射型近距空空导弹。“苏-352â€的机翼下装有能水平转动180度的转动发射装置。也就是说,它发射的导弹可以向后发射,“杀一个回马枪â€â€”—这是“苏-35â€最为独特的&#35774计。“苏-35â€不仅能用于夺取制空优势,而且还可用于对地面、海上目标实施远距离、高精度的有效打击。
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
this systems on the plane sounds so sweet that i'm drooling.. figuratively. it's got good electronic stuff, and get a chance to look at the AL-41F1 will give a great boost to the chinese engine industry. i say buy a few of them, even just to study the electronics/radar/engine. it's well worth the price, and china need more modern planes fast for possible future taiwan operations. it's always faster to have 2 countries building stuff than just one. china can concentrate on J-10 and J-xx while getting stuff in between them from russia. also since the Su-35 is based on the Su-27, it will be a lot easier for china to operate and maintain them with experience from the 27/30s
 

vincelee

Junior Member
you did notice that the radar array is not totally inmobile, right? I wonder if it's a limitation of PAR in general or if it's the quality of Russian beam forming technique.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
china relly nees this aircraft, so they havesomething to counter indias mki aircraft. the best thing is to buy an attack version wit canards and a fighter version wit tvc.

so how many should china buy? 100?
 
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