Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Maybe they worked the numbers and found that J-20 isn't much more expensive than J-31 but is much more capable in all roles and/or that it's better to do high-lo with J-20 and technologically supped up 4th gen jets (J-10, SinoFlanker series) for better kinematic performance over J-31.

If it were a pure logistics issues, then perhaps the PLAAF would be justified in going for an all-J-20 fifth generation fleet, although the FC-31 still likely occupies a different niche than the J-20. The only rationale for selecting the J-20 for the PLAN fighter would be for its greater fuel capacity/range.
 

weig2000

Captain
What a shame; the FC-31 v2.0 could have offered the PLAN a quantum leap in its abilities to carry out strike operations whilst maintaining a very credible air defense asset. I am quite dumbfounded as to why the PLANAF/PLAAF did not choose to wait until the v2.0 model actually made its debut.

The FC-31 project promised a 2019 LRIP date, something that definitely would not be achieved by a notional carrier-based J-20 project.

If the decision were indeed being made, then I think the biggest reason would be the gaps between what PLAN envisions its future requirements for a carrier-based fighter aircraft on its future CATOBAR carriers and what FC-31/J-31 can offer now and in the future, in comparison with what a navalized J-20 would offer. Granted, there are trade-offs and compromises have to be made.

The biggest advantage of FC-31/J-31 (over a potential navalized J-20) is its size. If PLAN intends to operate a fleet of mid-sized carriers, and their goals are mostly showing flags, front-line presence and facing small- to medium- sized navies and air forces, FC-31/J-31 would be a better choice. If, however, PLAN is planning to own a fleet of nuclear-powered super-carriers, similar to Nimitz or Ford class, possibly facing top-grade adversaries, either in blue water or not far from the coast, then FC-31/J-31 would likely to be at disadvantages compared to what it may face in the future. Its range, payloads, operating performances, and future upgrade flexibility are rather limited, relative to its adversaries and compared with J-20.

J-20, on the other hand, is here and now, and the risks to adapt it to a naval version is small. PLAN can share the same platform with PLAAF, and the more powerful WS-15 is coming, whereas there is no guarantee there would be an advanced medium thrust engine any time soon.

The biggest disadvantage of J-20 is its size, but as I said, it's a tradeoff. When all is said and done, a navalized J-20 is closer to PLAN's requirements than a J-31. At least that's how I look at it.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Also remember that there will be J-15s on the carriers as well, in roles such as EW, tanker, missile truck.

The J-20 works better with the J-15, as the J-31 is much smaller in terms of payload/range.
 

Engineer

Major
What a shame; the FC-31 v2.0 could have offered the PLAN a quantum leap in its abilities to carry out strike operations whilst maintaining a very credible air defense asset. I am quite dumbfounded as to why the PLANAF/PLAAF did not choose to wait until the v2.0 model actually made its debut.

The FC-31 project promised a 2019 LRIP date, something that definitely would not be achieved by a notional carrier-based J-20 project.
FC-31 is just a promise, whereas J-20 is a proven platform backed with thousands of test flight hours.

FC-31 came to be because SAC is relentless at trying to take a piece of the pie that CAC has swallowed! Imagine if somebody wants you to cough out your food so he/she could have some. It will truly be a shame if PLAAF/PLANAF buys into such absurdity.
 
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SinoSoldier

Colonel
FC-31 is just a promise, whereas J-20 is a proven platform backed with thousands of test flight hours.

FC-31 came to be because SAC is relentless at trying to take a piece of the pie that CAC has swallowed! Imagine if somebody wants you to cough out your food so he/she could have some. It will truly be a shame if PLAAF/PLANAF buys into such absurdity.

How does any of that matter when it comes to a military tender? If the FC-31 v2.0 offers close to the same capabilities the J-20 does, and without breaking the bank, it should be a decent platform.

What I'm confused about is why the PLAAF/PLAN decided to reject the tender before the v2.0 (which is the full prototype rather than the 31001 tech demonstrator) has even debuted.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
What a shame; the FC-31 v2.0 could have offered the PLAN a quantum leap in its abilities to carry out strike operations whilst maintaining a very credible air defense asset. I am quite dumbfounded as to why the PLANAF/PLAAF did not choose to wait until the v2.0 model actually made its debut.

The FC-31 project promised a 2019 LRIP date, something that definitely would not be achieved by a notional carrier-based J-20 project.

Was the 2019 LRIP date for land based FC-31 or a carrierborne variant?

I was under the assumption that the 2019 date was for the export variant, land based FC-31... not for carriers.

I wouldn't be surprised if a naval J-20 variant could be delivered as fast as a navalized FC-31, if one considers that only two FC-31 airframes are flying and neither are known to have the modifications necessary for carrier ops... vs nearly a dozen J-20 airframes flying including prototypes likely in advanced stages of weapons/avionics/systems integration tests.

Of course, the J-20 airframes also are not modified for carrier operations and are land based, but their systems integration tests and more extensive flight test programme overall should give it a massive leg up over the stage of testing the FC-31 was/is at.
 

Engineer

Major
How does any of that matter when it comes to a military tender? If the FC-31 v2.0 offers close to the same capabilities the J-20 does, and without breaking the bank, it should be a decent platform.
The FC-31 doesn't offer the same capabilities as J-20. The FC-31 would also require investment to reinvent the wheels found on the J-20. Finally, a decent platform won't cut it, as it has to be same or better than J-20.

What I'm confused about is why the PLAAF/PLAN decided to reject the tender before the v2.0 (which is the full prototype rather than the 31001 tech demonstrator) has even debuted.
There is no need to. PLAAF and PLANAF no doubt did their own assessments, and concluded that the FC-31 isn't worthy enough to even justify a competition.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
How does any of that matter when it comes to a military tender? If the FC-31 v2.0 offers close to the same capabilities the J-20 does, and without breaking the bank, it should be a decent platform.

What I'm confused about is why the PLAAF/PLAN decided to reject the tender before the v2.0 (which is the full prototype rather than the 31001 tech demonstrator) has even debuted.

It's highly unlikely that the FC31 v2 will come close to J20 specs or capabilities.

There are very good reasons why the PLAAF went with the J20 over SAC's offering in the first place.

Not only is the J20 vastly ahead in terms of programme development, there are also key factors to consider beyond the state of the current prototypes.

Both the J20 and FC31 are flying with interim engines.

Whereas the J20's primary intended power plant the WS15 is getting priority status and appears to be making steady progress, there is no such next gen engine in the works for the FC31.

So even if the FC31 comes close to the J20's kinetic performance now, by the time they are both expected to mature into their intended versions, the J20 should blow the FC31 out of the water in terms of raw airframe performance.

A carrier J20 would require a substantial redesign, but then so would a carrier FC31.

Not only will a carrier J20 have superior raw performance compared to the FC31, it should also enjoy significant economies of scale savings in procurement, operating and training costs by sharing a common airframe and parts as the land based J20, much like how the F35 was supposed to deliver substantial economy savings for the same reasons.

The big difference would be that because there isn't a STOVL J20 to throw a spanner in the works, a Chinese joint stealth fighter programme between the Air Force and navy has a significantly better chance of achieving the kind of goals originally promised by the F35.

Even if the FC31 is significantly cheaper now compared to a J20, if you compare the total combined programme development, procurement, operating and training costs of a J20+FC31 programme against a two version J20 programme, I would be very surprised if the J20+FC31 combo deal will come out significantly cheaper overall.

The only real, solid advantage the FC31 has over the J20's is size, so you can fit more FC31s on a carrier than you could a carrier J20.

While there are merits to both arguments, all you have to do is look at past PLAN procurement choices to see which side they stand on when it comes to heavy vs medium carrier fighter.

The PLANAF had the very viable option of buy off-the-shelf Russian Mig29Ks rather than develop the J15. Alternatively, they could have opted for a carrier version of the J10B/C if they wanted to go the domestic medium carrier fighter route.

Instead they opted for the heavy J15.

The fundamental reasons for them to prefer heavy over medium would not chance, so it's little wonder that when asked again if they wanted heavy or medium, they opted for heavy again.

I think realistically, the only option for the FC31 is now export.

As the name suggests, it will become the Chinese fifth gen JF17/FC1 - a low cost 'good enough' fighter offering that China could sell for profits with minimal risk of allowing potential adversaries and foes to be able to gleam operationally relevant data that could be used to counter China's own fighter forces.

America can acquire entire squadrons of JF17 or FC31s for their aggressor squadrons and it won't make US pilots any better at being able to fight J10s or J20s if it really came down to it.

As China expands its role and footprint internationally, having a viable 5th gen fighter it could offer to friends and allies would be a powerful card to be able to play, so it may well be worthwhile for the Chinese government to part finance the FC31 so it could use it as a diplomatic tool, as well as to keep enough competition alive inside China's fighter market to stop CAC becoming the Chinese LockMart, with all the risks that comes with having a single over dominant player in any critical field.
 

delft

Brigadier
A carrier fighter would normally be based of an existing operational land based fighter.
It has been done as in carrier versions of Flankers, Mig-29, Rafale and many more through the "ages", but many carrier fighters had no land based counterparts, think of F8 Crusader, F3D Skyray, F-14 Tomcat and many other American and some British carrier aircraft. The F-4 Phantom II was originally a carrier aircraft from which an Air Force branch of many members was derived.
 

Quickie

Colonel
It has been done as in carrier versions of Flankers, Mig-29, Rafale and many more through the "ages", but many carrier fighters had no land based counterparts, think of F8 Crusader, F3D Skyray, F-14 Tomcat and many other American and some British carrier aircraft. The F-4 Phantom II was originally a carrier aircraft from which an Air Force branch of many members was derived.

They're still of the same generation of existing land based fighter aircraft. What I meant was the suggestion of building a carrier fighter of the next generation without developing its land based counterpart first.
 
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