Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

Lethe

Captain
The PLAAF would operate the FC-31 the same (or in a very similar) way that the USAF would operate the F-35 it will be a multirole low-observable platform that would eventually supplant or complement the existing J-10s and J-16s.

What for? For OCA or long-range strike operations outside China's borders the J-20 is superior in every respect, while defensively J-31 would offer little over the already highly capable J-10B (and future developments).

The US rationale for the F-35 involved its preparation for war against the Soviet Union staged from the European theatre, and more recently "intervention" scenarios against nations such as Iraq staged from nearby friendly airbases. The Chinese strategic context is entirely different.

As for the Saudis,
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Exactly why the Saudis (and other Gulf countries) could well be interested in the J-31: they like shiny toys, they have lots of money, and they can't get western (or Russian) fifth-gen hardware. Add the deep relationship the Saudis have with Pakistan (long seen as a major export candidate for J-31) and the fact that Saudi Arabia already operates some Chinese hardware (ballistic missiles) and they seem the logical candidate to serve as development partner and customer for J-31 if such is required.
 
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SinoSoldier

Colonel
What for? For OCA or long-range strike operations outside China's borders the J-20 is superior in every respect, while defensively J-31 would offer little over the already highly capable J-10B (and future developments).

The US rationale for the F-35 involves its preparation for war against the Soviet Union staged from Germany, and more recently "intervention" scenarios against nations such as Iraq staged from nearby friendly airbases. The Chinese strategic context is entirely different.

Do we have evidence that the J-20 is capable of, and slated for, carrying heavy air-to-surface weaponry? The FC-31 would be a capable multirole aircraft that fills in a niche left unoccupied by the J-20. The FC-31 might also offer capabilities not found on the J-20, such as C4ISR capabilities that allow it to command aerial drones.

The FC-31 is a 5th-generation platform that offers VLO, sensor fusion, new avionics, and a novel level of situational awareness, few of which are actually exhibited by the J-10B. And even if the J-20/10B did render the FC-31 wholly redundant, it would be a cost-effective complement to the J-20 fleet.

Exactly why the Saudis (and other Gulf countries) could well be interested in the J-31: they like shiny toys, they have lots of money, and they can't get western (or Russian) fifth-gen hardware. Add the deep relationship the Saudis have with Pakistan (long seen as a major export candidate for J-31) and the fact that Saudi Arabia already operates some Chinese hardware (ballistic missiles) and they seem the logical candidate to serve as development partner and customer for J-31 if such is required.

Indeed, although I'd imagine the United States would do its best to block or discourage a deal that involves high-profile weapons from a potential foe, much like what it did with Turkey and the HQ-9.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Do we have evidence that the J-20 is capable of, and slated for, carrying heavy air-to-surface weaponry? The FC-31 would be a capable multirole aircraft that fills in a niche left unoccupied by the J-20. The FC-31 might also offer capabilities not found on the J-20, such as C4ISR capabilities that allow it to command aerial drones.

The FC-31 is a 5th-generation platform that offers VLO, sensor fusion, new avionics, and a novel level of situational awareness, few of which are actually exhibited by the J-10B. And even if the J-20/10B did render the FC-31 wholly redundant, it would be a cost-effective complement to the J-20 fleet.



Indeed, although I'd imagine the United States would do its best to block or discourage a deal that involves high-profile weapons from a potential foe, much like what it did with Turkey and the HQ-9.

On the flip side, do you have evidence that the J-31 is capable of carrying heavy anti-surface loads?
 

Lethe

Captain
Do we have evidence that the J-20 is capable of, and slated for, carrying heavy air-to-surface weaponry? The FC-31 would be a capable multirole aircraft that fills in a niche left unoccupied by the J-20. The FC-31 might also offer capabilities not found on the J-20, such as C4ISR capabilities that allow it to command aerial drones.

We don't definitively know what J-20 can and cannot carry, nor do we know what J-31 could or could not carry. It is possible that J-31 could be pursued as a more multi-role aircraft while J-20 remains focused on air superiority, akin to the division of labour between F-22 and F-35, however there is no reason to think this is in fact the case. Moroever, any shortcomings of the J-20 relative to J-31 could be rectified relatively easily, at far lower cost than developing an entirely new platform and while exploiting commonalities in training and logistics.

The essential characteristics (i.e. the difference in size) of the two aircraft mean that J-20 is fundamentally better suited to carrying heavier loads, further, and to incorporating new technologies as they arise. Indeed, instead of a smaller complement to J-20, I actually envision a larger, strike-oriented variant in future, akin to the concepts explored under the FB-22 project, where such a platform would be much better suited to Chinese requirements than it ever was for American requirements.

I have long thought that the prospects for J-31 are essentially tied to PLANAF's requirement for a fifth-generation carrier-based aircraft. If J-20 can be made to fulfil that role, then J-31 is dead in the water. If not, then J-31 goes forward for PLANAF and consequently could well find service in limited numbers with PLAAF as well (think how JH-7 worked out), plus the export market.

The FC-31 is a 5th-generation platform that offers VLO, sensor fusion, new avionics, and a novel level of situational awareness, few of which are actually exhibited by the J-10B. And even if the J-20/10B did render the FC-31 wholly redundant, it would be a cost-effective complement to the J-20 fleet.

VLO is by no means a game-changer in the defensive counter-air mission (e.g. hunting inbound B-2s) that J-10 is most suited for. Further development of the J-10 platform over the next decade can replicate most of the other advances that J-31 would offer, at considerably lower cost.

China may not be able to afford to fill its air force with J-20 and JH-20s alone, but that is not the prospect on offer. Even if China goes forward with J-20 alone, it will be backed by large numbers of cheaper 4+ generation aircraft of relatively recent manufacture for the forseeable future.
 

vesicles

Colonel
The key difference between the two programs, and one crucially relevant to our discussion at hand, is that the J-20 program was borne out of a PLAAF requirement (i.e. a military-sanctioned tender) while the FC-31 is an independent project by SAC. The J-20 program would have had access to PLAAF funding, among other luxuries, that the FC-31 program would not. The same principle could be applied to other big-ticket items, such as the 001A or Divine Eagle UAV.

Funding, au contraire, is a huge factor in the success of a military project. The FC-31 used funds directly from SAC itself rather than China's DoD, so it is definitely a burden for SAC. The YF-23, which supposedly out-performed the F-22 in kinematics, was canceled precisely due to lack of funds.

You seem to consider "the lack of funding" as a root cause, which potentially leads to all sorts of issues with the J-31. I, on the other hand, think of "lack of funding" as an effect. In other words, what makes people unwilling to give them the money? Most likely because of lack of enthusiasm of the design?

Why would the PLA still not want to fund the J-31? If the J-31 is such a technologically advanced piece of equipment and provides such strategic and tactical advantages for the PLA, what is the PLA waiting for? They should have pounced on it by now. Why are they allowing the SAC to shoulder such burden, which should never be SAC's to begin with?

It is not because of lack of trying. We have seen interviews describing some PLA personnel visiting and inspecting the J-31 many times. Yet, the SAC is still shouldering the burden. The J-31 cannot get DoD and PLA funding because of unknown causes, most likely dissatisfactory designs. The lack of enthusiasm on the part of the PLA is a huge flashing neon sign "we don't like it!"

Funding, au contraire, is a huge factor in the success of a military project. The FC-31 used funds directly from SAC itself rather than China's DoD, so it is definitely a burden for SAC. The YF-23, which supposedly out-performed the F-22 in kinematics, was canceled precisely due to lack of funds.

You need to look at the other way around. The YF-23 was cancelled not because of lack of funding. It could not obtain funding because it lost competition to the F-22 and because no one was interested in it. In other words, it couldn't find funding because people in the government had already decided to abandon it.

The lack of funding is NOT the cause, but an effect stemmed from other more fundamental issues.

Lack of publicity does not necessarily imply that there is a lack of progress. Granted, the FC-31 seems to be on the backburner until the PLA makes its decision, but keep in mind that it has been increasingly difficult to gauge the progress of Chinese military projects in recent times. The J-11D, for instance, remained unknown to the public until it conducted its maiden flight. Same thing could be said for the Divine Eagle UAV, Sharp Sword, and a host of other platforms.

That being said, there are numerous rumors, as well as official statements from SAC itself, that an improved functioning prototype is being pursued.

We cannot make that assertion solely based on a lack of progress. It would be unwise for a company to continue development of a project that its customers remain undecided upon, but that stagnation alone is not indicative of the customer's intentions.

At this point, we simply do not know what the PLAAF/PLANAF's feelings are regarding the FC-31, nor do we know its capabilities well enough to form our own assessment of its prospects. A lack of publicity regarding the FC-31's testing regime is by no means implicit of its rejection by the Chinese armed forces. Additionally, rumors claim that the PLAAF's decision will not come until late 2016.

Yes, at this point, absence of visible progress of the J-31 alone cannot be evidence of slow pace. However, I am comparing the visible progress of the J-31 with other similar programs in China. It is a parallel comparison.

You mentioned the J-11D. Once they had the maiden flight, we began to get consistent info on the progress of the J-11D. Similarly, we knew little of the J-20 until they made the maiden flight. Then we began to get consistent info on its progress. the J-31 made maiden flight long time ago. We all saw the photos. Instead of all the amazing progress seen with other programs, such as the J-20, J-11D, J-10, J-15, J-16, the J-31 is at a standstill.

It's not because of lack of info. We still get photos of the J-31 every once in a while. If you go back a couple page in this very thread, you will find tons of photos of the J-31. The only weird thing is that it's always the same plane sitting, taxing and flying a bit. No change whatsoever.

You cannot use tightening of the security as an excuse because we are comparing similar programs in China. The same level of security should be applied to all programs in China. We also see the SAC taking the J-31, the actual plane and/or scaled models, to airshows. However, we never see the J-20 at any airshows. So if anything, the J-31 actually enjoys looser security than the J-20. In fact, it seems that the SAC is actually advertising the J-31, instead of hiding it. Yet, we see progress of other programs, particularly the similarly sensitive stealth fighter J-20. Nothing with the J-31.

You also cannot use different physical location of SAC vs CAC as an excuse. Someone has mentioned that the SAC is at a more remote location. However, it's not that we cannot get photos. We still get photos of the J-31. Although not as often as the J-20, we still get them, with the J-31 sitting, taxing and flying, with the landing gear down or up, with the weapons bay closed or open. All sorts of configurations. So we can still get info. The only difference between the J-31 and the J-20 is that J-20 keeps evolving and the J-31 is still that same old pathetic self.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
We are seeing lots of pictures of two Raptors and two ThunderHogge IIs in formation, as well as four F-35s, and the two ship is still the preferred operating team for the F-22. So the FC-31 looks to be a very fine airframe, but it is rather small to carry all the goodies the Raptor carries, and lets not forget, this bird is in very early, early development, to figure it into your battle plans you are looking at least ten years out, and likely 15-20.

Master Kwai and I agree at least 90% of the time, but underestimate the Raptor at your own risk? really, the FC-31 has a long way to go to be a viable threat to the Raptor. In fact I would imagine the only way to be a threat will be to "eyes on the target", and a "gun solution".

I based my assumption on the F31 production models not current model lol but these types of discussions as we all know is inherently flawed and difficult to ascertain because very seldom would an engagement happen strictly w/o any external factors playing a role especially in this case where we're talking about two powerful nation states.

It would be entirely different if the F22 goes up against the F31 owned by a tiny country or some rogue organization or a private entity with no other form of ground based or aerial based support assets.

I'm basing my theory on US F22s going against PLAAF F31s within China's A2/AD zones
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
On the flip side, do you have evidence that the J-31 is capable of carrying heavy anti-surface loads?

No, but the numerous photos of official models equipped with heavy anti-surface and anti-ship weaponry leads me to believe that the platform could be more multirole-oriented than is the J-20. A few measurements of the FC-31's weapons bays have been done by members of this forum before and they show that, size-wise, it is capable of accommodating such weaponry.

We don't definitively know what J-20 can and cannot carry, nor do we know what J-31 could or could not carry. It is possible that J-31 could be pursued as a more multi-role aircraft while J-20 remains focused on air superiority, akin to the division of labour between F-22 and F-35, however there is no reason to think this is in fact the case. Moroever, any shortcomings of the J-20 relative to J-31 could be rectified relatively easily, at far lower cost than developing an entirely new platform and while exploiting commonalities in training and logistics.

Aside from occupying diverging niches in the realm of air combat, the J-20 and FC-31 could fufill a high-lo combo, as it's reasonable to assume that the latter will be significantly cheaper than the former. The PLAAF could maintain a larger 5th-generation fleet with a mixture of FC-31s and J-20s than purely the J-20, barring any significant budget increases.

The essential characteristics (i.e. the difference in size) of the two aircraft mean that J-20 is fundamentally better suited to carrying heavier loads, further, and to incorporating new technologies as they arise. Indeed, instead of a smaller complement to J-20, I actually envision a larger, strike-oriented variant in future, akin to the concepts explored under the FB-22 project, where such a platform would be much better suited to Chinese requirements than it ever was for American requirements.

Where did you get the notion that the J-20 is more flexible at accommodating new technologies? If anything, the export-oriented FC-31 should be more modular in this regard. A strike-oriented J-20 variant is certainly possible, but whether such a project can offer more attractive technical capabilities, price, and R&D time than the FC-31 is another question.

I have long thought that the prospects for J-31 are essentially tied to PLANAF's requirement for a fifth-generation carrier-based aircraft. If J-20 can be made to fulfil that role, then J-31 is dead in the water. If not, then J-31 goes forward for PLANAF and consequently could well find service in limited numbers with PLAAF as well (think how JH-7 worked out), plus the export market.

A naval J-20 would not be able to meet the LRIP date offered by the FC-31 program (2019). Moreover, its large size relative to the FC-31 and the small displacement of future Chinese carriers could also be a cause for concern for the PLAN that might be looking to expand the tactical flexibility of its carrier wing.

VLO is by no means a game-changer in the defensive counter-air mission (e.g. hunting inbound B-2s) that J-10 is most suited for. Further development of the J-10 platform over the next decade can replicate most of the other advances that J-31 would offer, at considerably lower cost.

There are only so many upgrades that the J-10 can incorporate before it is left in the dust by Chinese and other 5th-generation fighters. That is also a reason why the F-35 and F-22 were pursued despite the advent of the F-15SE and F-16V (which even offer more capabilities over the J-10B).

VLO is definitely a major advantage in virtually any air-to-air scenario. It is what allows the J-20/F-22/T-50/F-35/FC-31 to achieve essential BVR capabilities.

China may not be able to afford to fill its air force with J-20 and JH-20s alone, but that is not the prospect on offer. Even if China goes forward with J-20 alone, it will be backed by large numbers of cheaper 4+ generation aircraft of relatively recent manufacture for the forseeable future.

Or, it can go for a larger 5th-generation fleet consisting of a mixture of J-20s and FC-31s whilst maintaining a low-rate production line for 4th-generation aircraft.

You seem to consider "the lack of funding" as a root cause, which potentially leads to all sorts of issues with the J-31. I, on the other hand, think of "lack of funding" as an effect. In other words, what makes people unwilling to give them the money? Most likely because of lack of enthusiasm of the design?

Both your and my assertions are correct to some degree. My point is that the FC-31 program is reactionary to the PLAAF's decision, and thus from the perspective of SAC, funding is the sought-after goal. From the PLAAF's perspective, the important factors are the capabilities and usefulness of the FC-31.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Why would the PLA still not want to fund the J-31? If the J-31 is such a technologically advanced piece of equipment and provides such strategic and tactical advantages for the PLA, what is the PLA waiting for? They should have pounced on it by now. Why are they allowing the SAC to shoulder such burden, which should never be SAC's to begin with?

It is not because of lack of trying. We have seen interviews describing some PLA personnel visiting and inspecting the J-31 many times. Yet, the SAC is still shouldering the burden. The J-31 cannot get DoD and PLA funding because of unknown causes, most likely dissatisfactory designs. The lack of enthusiasm on the part of the PLA is a huge flashing neon sign "we don't like it!"

Let me emphasize this point again: the lack of a go-ahead from the PLAAF at this point does not imply that the FC-31 has been formally rejected. A fighter tender takes time for the potential customer to evaluate its many technical, strategic, and financial aspects, during which it is not going to provide funding to the supplier.

You need to look at the other way around. The YF-23 was cancelled not because of lack of funding. It could not obtain funding because it lost competition to the F-22 and because no one was interested in it. In other words, it couldn't find funding because people in the government had already decided to abandon it.

The lack of funding is NOT the cause, but an effect stemmed from other more fundamental issues.

The YF-23's capabilities were often believed to have surpassed those of the YF-22, particularly in AoA, stealth, and range. The YF-23 program was ultimately canceled because it was in and of itself too costly vis-a-vis the F-22 program. Hence, it was a funding issue, for both Northrop/McD and also the USAF.

Yes, at this point, absence of visible progress of the J-31 alone cannot be evidence of slow pace. However, I am comparing the visible progress of the J-31 with other similar programs in China. It is a parallel comparison.

How did you know that the "other programs" did not go through a similar evaluation/tender phase? Furthermore, these other projects might be PLAAF-mandated rather than independent ventures.

You mentioned the J-11D. Once they had the maiden flight, we began to get consistent info on the progress of the J-11D. Similarly, we knew little of the J-20 until they made the maiden flight. Then we began to get consistent info on its progress. the J-31 made maiden flight long time ago. We all saw the photos. Instead of all the amazing progress seen with other programs, such as the J-20, J-11D, J-10, J-15, J-16, the J-31 is at a standstill.

That wasn't the point of my post. The updates that we get of the J-11D program are still very lackluster compared to, let's say, the J-20 or the J-10C. The same could be said of the Divine Eagle, Sharp Sword, and many other SAC projects. The point? It is not unreasonable to assume that the inaccessibility or security at SAC could have an effect on how much gets leaked out.

It's not because of lack of info. We still get photos of the J-31 every once in a while. If you go back a couple page in this very thread, you will find tons of photos of the J-31. The only weird thing is that it's always the same plane sitting, taxing and flying a bit. No change whatsoever.

And, to play the devil's advocate, isn't that what other programs are also doing? Sitting, taxiing, and flying a bit?

You cannot use tightening of the security as an excuse because we are comparing similar programs in China. The same level of security should be applied to all programs in China. We also see the SAC taking the J-31, the actual plane and/or scaled models, to airshows. However, we never see the J-20 at any airshows. So if anything, the J-31 actually enjoys looser security than the J-20. In fact, it seems that the SAC is actually advertising the J-31, instead of hiding it. Yet, we see progress of other programs, particularly the similarly sensitive stealth fighter J-20. Nothing with the J-31.

Nobody is treating security as an excuse, but it is a legitimate and potent influence over how much access the public has to these military projects.

The fact that the FC-31 appears at airshows is due to the fact that it is an export-oriented platform, and has nothing to do with security.

You also cannot use different physical location of SAC vs CAC as an excuse. Someone has mentioned that the SAC is at a more remote location. However, it's not that we cannot get photos. We still get photos of the J-31. Although not as often as the J-20, we still get them, with the J-31 sitting, taxing and flying, with the landing gear down or up, with the weapons bay closed or open. All sorts of configurations. So we can still get info. The only difference between the J-31 and the J-20 is that J-20 keeps evolving and the J-31 is still that same old pathetic self.

Yes, I can. The more proximal a flight test center is to a large residential area, the more probability there is of people snapping photographs or blogging about various aircraft. Conversely, a secluded and remote airfield not only makes it harder to access, but also easier for their security to spot and apprehend any trespassers/lurkers.

Sure, we get occasional photos of SAC products, but how often do we do so compared to aircraft from Chengdu?
 

vesicles

Colonel
Let me emphasize this point again: the lack of a go-ahead from the PLAAF at this point does not imply that the FC-31 has been formally rejected. A fighter tender takes time for the potential customer to evaluate its many technical, strategic, and financial aspects, during which it is not going to provide funding to the supplier.

I have never said the J-31 had been rejected. My point has always been that lack of enthusiasm from the PLA bodes badly with the J-31.

I understanding how hard it is to develop a world-class stealth fighter. My argument is solely based on a comparison between J-20 and J-31. Two programs are equivalent in terms of their technology level and strategic importance, as well as their starting time (initial flight of J-20 was Jan. 2011; initial flight of J-31 was Oct. 2012). Yet, the J-20 now has 8 known prototypes and 1 known production model. The J-31 has only 1...... technology demonstrator?.

The ability to obtain government funding is always tied to your performance, alway!

Lack of funding = poor performance.

The YF-23's capabilities were often believed to have surpassed those of the YF-22, particularly in AoA, stealth, and range. The YF-23 program was ultimately canceled because it was in and of itself too costly vis-a-vis the F-22 program. Hence, it was a funding issue, for both Northrop/McD and also the USAF.

I don't care why the YF-23 was canceled. The fact is YF-23 lost the competition to the YF-22, which directly led to the decision to stop funding the program and eventual cancellation.

My point is to correctly evaluate the cause / effect relationship. Lack of funding is never the cause. Something has to lead to the decision of not funding the program. Lac of funding is simply a reflection of deeper issues.

How did you know that the "other programs" did not go through a similar evaluation/tender phase? Furthermore, these other projects might be PLAAF-mandated rather than independent ventures.

A simple comparison between J-20 and J-31...

That wasn't the point of my post. The updates that we get of the J-11D program are still very lackluster compared to, let's say, the J-20 or the J-10C. The same could be said of the Divine Eagle, Sharp Sword, and many other SAC projects. The point? It is not unreasonable to assume that the inaccessibility or security at SAC could have an effect on how much gets leaked out.

Nobody is treating security as an excuse, but it is a legitimate and potent influence over how much access the public has to these military projects.

The fact that the FC-31 appears at airshows is due to the fact that it is an export-oriented platform, and has nothing to do with security.

Yes, I can. The more proximal a flight test center is to a large residential area, the more probability there is of people snapping photographs or blogging about various aircraft. Conversely, a secluded and remote airfield not only makes it harder to access, but also easier for their security to spot and apprehend any trespassers/lurkers.

Sure, we get occasional photos of SAC products, but how often do we do so compared to aircraft from Chengdu?

Although not as often as the J-20, we still consistently get photos of the J-31. So we have been getting access to the plane.

The last time when we got photos of the J-20 (a couple months ago), it was 2101, a supposed production model after 8 known prototypes. This is a time frame between Jan. 2011 (maiden flight) and July 2016.

The last time when we got photos of the J-31 (also a couple months ago), it was still 31001, the first and only plane. This is a time frame between Oct. 2012 (maiden flight) and July 2016.

Again, my argument is about a comparison between the two equivalent programs.

If you want to talk about inaccessibility, the CV-16 would be an extreme case since it spends most its time in the middle of the ocean, where no civilian can go. Yet, we consistently get photos of the CV-16, with a couple J-15's on board --> 3 J-15's --> 5 J-15's --> now 8 J-15's. That's progress! That's what I am looking for. Where is progress for the J-31?

And, to play the devil's advocate, isn't that what other programs are also doing? Sitting, taxiing, and flying a bit?

That's not what I meant. I meant the progress from 2001 (maiden flight in Jan, 2011) --> 2002 --> 2011 --> 2012 --> 2013 --> 2015 --> 2016 --> 2017 --> 2101

And what about J-31? let's see... 31001 (maiden flight in Oct, 2012) -- > ....................
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Again, my argument is about a comparison between the two equivalent programs.

... the progress from 2001 (maiden flight in Jan, 2011) --> 2002 --> 2011 --> 2012 --> 2013 --> 2015 --> 2016 --> 2017 --> 2101

And what about J-31? let's see... 31001 (maiden flight in Oct, 2012) -- > ....................
Well, you are exactly right. No progress on the J-31.

We simply do not know all of the reasons why.

Technical? Political? Finance/cost?

Whatever the reason it is clear that the PRC is moving forward with the J-20. Numerous...as in many...improvements and enhancements have been made as they have progressed with the testing and the various prototype releases/builds.

We see now what appears to be LRIP aircraft now which is a sure sign that the program is about to progress past the prototype/testing phase into the preparation phases for operational testing.

The progress and the milestones it is achieving are clear.

We see NOTHING comparable with the J-31.

For whatever reason...we simply do not, and vesicles, your arguments to that point are clear and undeniable.

We have a five year history with the J-20 and it has all been about progress and moving forward.

We have a little less time with the J-31...but it has been all about remaining pretty much static.

Will that always be the case?

I do not know at this point.

...but the longer it goes without another aircraft and measurable and definable progress on the program measured in new developmets and innovations showing up on new prototypes...as I say, the longer that goes on, the less likely that it is going to ever become a production aircraft.
 
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