broadsword
Brigadier
We had things to discuss, things that were short and sweet but which you obviously found salty. And it happened to appear on a tweet about the F-31. If you were not happy, why did you not report?
Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator
- Thread starter RedSky
- Start date
We had things to discuss, things that were short and sweet but which you obviously found salty. And it happened to appear on a tweet about the F-31. If you were not happy, why did you not report?
FriedRiceNSpice
Captain
You should also know that a zong-zhi and dumplings are totally unrelated food items.
vesicles
Colonel
Uhhhh... you know “zong-zi” were sacrificial food too. Ancient Chinese made “zong-zi” so that they could dump them into the river to prevent the fish from eating the body of their heroic poet. I don’t want to go into the details now...
Dumplings (jiao-zi), on the other hand, was invented by Zhang Zhongjing, the famous ancient Chinese doctor in the Hang dynasty. He invented dumpling to cure frost bitten ears. At least that’s the story I’ve heard. I’ve never heard of dumpling being sacrificial food.
You might be talking about bao-zi. The legend says the famed military commander Zhuge Liang made “bao-zi” to look like human heads for sacrificial purposes when he was told that he had to make human sacrifices to cross a river. He didn’t like the idea of killing someone just to cross a river. So he ordered his cooks to make these huge buns with meat fillings to throw into the river.
Brumby
Major
Since we just celebrated Zong-zi this month, the reference to dumplings mean sticky rice dumplings as opposed to the generic meaning of dumplings which has much broader meaning in Chinese society especially between Northern and Southern Chinese cuisine.
As to the origin of Zong-Zi, the version I am familiar with is the sacrificial version.
Btw, "zong" refers to the dumpling. "Zi" means festival. In essence we celebrate "Zong-Zi" and eat the "Zong".
All these discussions on Zong-zi should be moved to the Chinese culture thread.
SinoSoldier
Colonel
Is that a reference to those sweet or salty rice tamales?
broadsword
Brigadier
The fighter, of course.
Indeed, lets get back to the J-31/FC-31 program, the program is an "in-house" proof of concept aircraft by Shenyang/AVIC, to date they have produced 2 flying "proof of concept" aircraft, an early aircraft, then a follow on aircraft with some aerodynamic/RCS reduction modifications, apparently using the Russian RD-93 engines that power the Mig-29... this very minimalist program has received minimal lip service from the PLAAF/PLANAF.
You my friend, are suggesting that such a minimalist program "must" be superior to the F-35 in order to be viable??? I'm simply reminding you that the nexus of the JSF program occurred in the early 90's, say around 1993, so its a well funded, (think Billions of Dollars), and well supported program with hundreds of operational aircraft, that is over 25 years old, and has a dozen or so international partners...
So lets leave your "straw man" arguments about an Su-35 vs an F-22 out of the FC-31 thread and stick to the facts... the FC-31 is a newborn, will it be further developed into a "real airplane", (Mr. Brumby's point by the way), or will AVIC use this experience to lead into a new proposal for PLAAF/PLANAF? No one here on SDF has any real knowledge of what comes next, I'm sure you're hopeful, I don't blame you, I would be too if I were looking at things from your perspective
I'm interested because its a beautiful little airplane, could it look any more like a LockMart bird?? lets be honest here, its going to take China just as much engineering and money to bring the FC-31/J-35 into existence, as it took the US to bring the F-35 to its current state of production.... that my friend is the reality facing China....
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
So the only part that I actually agree with you on is that one cannot use the existence of a design to argue its superiority over a rival. That said, he's clearly not referring to the current rejected prototype; he's talking about the J-35 that they are supposedly working on now fitted with WS-19 engines. There no reason whatsoever that this aircraft should be inferior to F-35, although we are comparing an operational bird to something that hadn't even been built yet.
It's more like a stealth MiG-29 since that aircraft was the first dual vertical stabilizer jet and what the LockMart birds look like.
Let's be honest here: that makes no sense at all. Because the US spent an extremely extravagant amount of money to build this weird tri-version jet with awkward functions, that means that China, with late-comer advantage, will spend the same amount of money to get a much more straight-forward single version jet working? There's almost no chance of that, because the J-35 program is much less complicated in requirements (no vert take-off, no 3 versions, etc...), China can learn from US mistakes (both from public information and that many people say China hacked the F-35 data), and because Chinese research is traditionally more cost-effective than American research.
You're the wishful thinker here, there's really no program of record, but if China does build the FC-31/J-35?? its gonna cost a hell of a lot of money and time spent engineering in order to produce an aircraft with similar capabilities to an F-35, and you know that as well as I do! so when this wishful J-35 is flying with two WS-19s?? if it ever does, then you've started down the path to maybe, possibly, hopefully being on trac to F-35 type capability, but you're nowhere near a STOVL fighter aircraft, so that's one more "pie in the sky" project for you....
broadsword
Brigadier
Man & Brat, the notion of which is superior is based on subjectivity. There are no hard numbers of the performance and specifications of the FC-31 and its weapon systems. As much as both members' subjective reasoning is sound, it is a waste of time and bandwidth to debate on this issue.