Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
ougoah said:
WS-13 is not projected to be any better than RD-33 variants. The project exists to have a Chinese alternative to the Klimov engine so that JF-17 does not have to rely on the favourable politics in order to access the only engine the JF-17 can use.

WS-13 however will be favoured over RD-xx if J-31 is ever to come into service anywhere in the world. WS-13 won't be significantly better or worse but it allows China to build as many J-31s as it wants and use its own engines. WS-13 on J-31 is to be celebrated. As far as we know, there are no official projects for next gen medium thrust engines for this class.
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I would be shocked if J-31 strapped on the WS-13IPE and plumes of black smoke erupted from its arse. It would be really unlike the Chinese to just copy it and let it be. They would have spent all this time NOT incorporating the lessons they've learned to improve the Soviet design by any amount. In any case, I believe that with WS-13IPE, they'll definitely be over 90kN and be aiming for 100kN and they'll give some extra focus to the dry thrust aiming to give J-31 some super-cruise capability... if they ever do get the thing done.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes that's entirely possible given the new materials available today. They may also need to play around with compression ratios to get rid of smoke. Depends on much money was poured into this. Maybe they just want a quick copy of RD-33s but given the amount of time, I would also bet it's an improvement since materials are more or less figured out since WS-10's success so there shouldn't be any delays just because of that.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Or, alternatively they just don’t care that much about the smoke because it doesn’t impact performance, and if they’re already developing another mid sized engine with higher T:W there’s no point sinking resources into what amounts to a vanity problem.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
latenlazy said:
Or, alternatively they just don’t care that much about the smoke because it doesn’t impact performance, and if they’re already developing another mid sized engine with higher T:W there’s no point sinking resources into what amounts to a vanity problem.
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I don't think that's a vanity problem. The smoke indicates deficiencies in the way the fuel is burned, meaning there is still usable energy being expelled as smoke. If this were rectified, it could result in greater fuel efficiency (extended range) and maybe increased thrust as well. In other words, we're not trying to make the smoke disappear; we're trying to optimize engine efficiency and that would cause the smoke to disappear. This is the main reason for which I believe that the RD-33/93 design still has potential for growth and it would be folly for China to simply reproduce it without addressing even the visible defects. Or at least that's my understanding of it. Could be wrong.

Does China have another medium thrust engine program running? I didn't know. Which one? Thanks
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
manqiangrexue said:
I don't think that's a vanity problem. The smoke indicates deficiencies in the way the fuel is burned, meaning there is still usable energy being expelled as smoke. If this were rectified, it could result in greater fuel efficiency (extended range) and maybe increased thrust as well. In other words, we're not trying to make the smoke disappear; we're trying to optimize engine efficiency and that would cause the smoke to disappear. Or at least that's my understanding of it. Could be wrong.

Does China have another medium thrust engine program running? I didn't know. Which one? Thanks
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Smoke does indicate inefficient combustion, *but* the engines may not be smoking at every setting. The efficiency gains from rectifying the problem may not be significant.
 
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Pmichael

Junior Member
manqiangrexue said:
In modern air warfare, especially with stealth fighters, you're probably engaging from a distance and with technologies where that won't be a factor.
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Stealth doesn't actually change the engagement distance significantly. Limited factor is still the no escape area of your armament.

Though smoking engines don't help you regarding the IR signature management.
 
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schenkus

Junior Member
Registered Member
There have been rumours about WS-13 being in development / close to production for use in JF-17 or FC-31 for a long time (at least since 2012).

Do we know how serious this project has been all this time ?

Has someone spent a lot of money developping this engine and it just takes longer than we expected, or is this a project to keep a relatively small team working on a medium thrust engine just in case ?

Pakistan seems happy with using russian RD-93s on JF-17, so unless China actually orders a big number of planes or drones using a medium thrust engine I don't see much need for WS-13.
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
vesicles said:
I hate the first FC-31 because it looks clumsy and like a toy. Its black paint makes it look like a mess.

Honestly, you are giving me too much credit for being able to distinguishing “western” features vs “eastern” features on a plane. In fact, I don’t even know what defines “western” vs “eastern” features.

And about the engines. To this day, I still don’t know what engines the FC-31 uses. I know it’s not the AL31 series. Exactly what engines? No clue. The J-20 still uses AL31 engines, but I absolutely love the J-20. Why? It looks slick and cool. The F-22 is still my most favorite 5th gen stealth fighter because it looks the coolest. Childish. I know...

My opinion almost solely comes from my view of the esthetics of the plane. I hate it because it looks ugly. Simple as that. It is childish. I know that. I’m not proud of it, but can’t help it.

I know it’s naive and childish to judge a sophisticated machine by its look. But I don’t have the expertise to do it otherwise. I also know that I shouldn’t judge something when I don’t have the expertise to do so. But I am allowed to have my opinions on things. That’s why I always make sure to make it clear in my post that it’s my own opinion and that I don’t ever consider my opinion to be authoritative. Simply my opinion. However childish it may be.
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more importantly, you're not a "hater", you state your opinion honestly, and I get that the J-31 looked a little "generic" with that all over flat black,,, I "hate" blacked out Mustangs, Camaro's, Ducati's, blah, blah, blah,, wheels particularly should have a little "bling".

on the other hand, the J-20 while flying nice and looking very nice to most, leaves me a little??? just depends on the day???

The FC-31 is "blinged out" and it does indeed just look right,, I hated that the F-35 was going to supplant the F-22 for probably fairly close to the same price, at 3/4s of the capability aerodynamically and performance wise, but I had to get over it..LOL

No, I'm talking about the folks who have contempt for the F-31, just shows a lack of appreciation for what is likely one of China's potentially more important defense aspects.
 
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