S400 in Syria - tactical and strategic implications

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Normaly S-400 detect F-22 up to 50 km about the SDB get a more big range with ther wings in more F-22 give a big speed, then F-22 can destroy in first S-400 but also can depends which open her radar in first.

F-22 have really need for maintain later her advantage an IRST and eventually designator pod for GBL idealy an EOTS as on the F-35.
Rafale, Typhoon get an IRST no Grippen, Soviets are the first to use that on Mig-29/Su-27 ~30 years ago.
 
Last edited:

Brumby

Major
Would they though?
We don't know the probable escalation path in the event that a S-400 takes down a coalition aircraft inside Syria. Coalition response will be measured according to the nature of the incident but nevertheless it is a serious issue that is best avoided to begin with. In my view putting a S-400 inside Syria is irresponsible and unnecessary as it is not ISIS related.

Russia had it's aircraft shot down by Turkish forces in very suspect circumstances and it did not respond with a missile strike against the airbase that hosted that F-16. Based on that alone, your hypothesis would show Russia to be the more responsible actor in the region.
Was Turkey's action without basis? Personally I think it was the wrong decision but legally it was within ROE's because Russia was given prior warnings due to similar incidents of cross border incursion. If Russia was acting responsibly, it should have avoided that zone entirely given past incursions and Turkey's warning. I will credit Russia as being restrained post incident but responsibly - no.
Withholding missile strike is not a sign of responsible action because that act would not fall within such purview but an act of war.

But it's all moot because Turkey has set the precedent of shooting down the Russian aircraft, not the other way around. Russia is entitled to a response and the US/NATO won't risk a spiraling conflict with that reality hanging around their necks. Russia is also operating legally in Syria & Iraq which gives it cover to act if Turkey, literally, crosses the line.
I am sure Russia will take any opportunity if Turkey hands it to them. The shoot down incident is not a free pass though to take down coalition aircraft operating within Syria and that was AFB's primary point. There will be consequences.

Anyway I thought this whole thing about strikes against Russia and the S-400 positions was issued a moderation? Not sure how it got started in the first place and why we've come back to it again? I saw Ultra's name in the moderation but I don't remember him advocating retaliation against the S-400's?
Some poster(s) was beating war drums because they can't remove emotions from a conceptual discussion.
 

Zool

Junior Member
We don't know the probable escalation path in the event that a S-400 takes down a coalition aircraft inside Syria. Coalition response will be measured according to the nature of the incident but nevertheless it is a serious issue that is best avoided to begin with. In my view putting a S-400 inside Syria is irresponsible and unnecessary as it is not ISIS related.

No we don't, but I suspect a Russian shoot down of a Turkish Fighter will not result in retaliatory strikes against Russian positions or the S-400 emplacements, for the reasons I mentioned.

On your view of S-400 deployment in Syria being irresponsible and unnecessary as it relates to IS, I would take the polar opposite position. S-400 were brought in only after a Russian aircraft was shot down by what was previously believed to be a friendly, or at least non-belligerent (in the context of relations with Russia) Government. To exemplify that point the Russians, prior to Turkey destroying their Su-24, did not even bother to arm their strike aircraft with short range AAM's because it was as you say unnecessary in a conflict with IS and they did not imagine this kind of attack from Turkey. That in my view is an initial failure in the planning of Russian operations to account for and mitigate unexpected scenarios. The S-400 is playing catch up to that failure. It is every nations responsibility to ensure their military personnel are adequately equipped and protected.


Was Turkey's action without basis? Personally I think it was the wrong decision but legally it was within ROE's because Russia was given prior warnings due to similar incidents of cross border incursion. If Russia was acting responsibly, it should have avoided that zone entirely given past incursions and Turkey's warning. I will credit Russia as being restrained post incident but responsibly - no.
Withholding missile strike is not a sign of responsible action because that act would not fall within such purview but an act of war.

I would say as far as international law is concerned it is still early to say Turkey was legally justified (perhaps even in violation of international law) to shoot down the Russian aircraft as the countries dispute the location of the Su-24 relative to the boarder and information out of Turkey on position, warnings and timing do not appear to add up with the speed the Su-24 would have been travelling and distance covered. In any case my response to Air Force Brat on responsibility was in the context of his scenario of F-22's striking S-400 positions in retaliation for Russia taking their pound of flesh for the Su-24 attack. I stand by my original posting.


I am sure Russia will take any opportunity if Turkey hands it to them. The shoot down incident is not a free pass though to take down coalition aircraft operating within Syria and that was AFB's primary point. There will be consequences.

I don't think anyone seriously looking at the situation would describe it as a free pass but rather a potential consequence to a hostile action taken by Turkey. Action & Reaction. As with Turkey's justification in shooting down the Su-24, reasonable people will be free to debate the justification of Russia shooting down a Turkish aircraft, should that end up occurring. AFB's point to me seemed pretty specific when talking about a response of F-22's directed against S-400 positions. But I know you are at a disadvantage here in speaking for him so I'll leave it be.

Some poster(s) was beating war drums because they can't remove emotions from a conceptual discussion.

Agree.
 

Brumby

Major
No we don't, but I suspect a Russian shoot down of a Turkish Fighter will not result in retaliatory strikes against Russian positions or the S-400 emplacements, for the reasons I mentioned.
I think we are probably running ahead of ourselves until we know what the ROE's are leading to a hypothetical scenario of a Turkish plane being taken down. It is important to contrast with the recent downing of the Russian plane, where Turkey had made it clear upfront that the ROE's were any further cross border incursion will result in specific action against that intrusion. The Russians chose to ignore it. The question then is what ROE's had the Russians set that would justify a similar action? You just don't take out another nation's air asset because you feel like it. It must meet certain conditions.

On your view of S-400 deployment in Syria being irresponsible and unnecessary as it relates to IS, I would take the polar opposite position. S-400 were brought in only after a Russian aircraft was shot down by what was previously believed to be a friendly, or at least non-belligerent (in the context of relations with Russia) Government.
There were protest by Turkey to Russia over previous incursions leading eventually to very specific ROE's issued by Turkey. The Russians just chose to ignore it. ROE's either have meaning or they do not.

Given that S-400 are now brought in, what specific ROE's are there that warrant the application of it? This is where the irresponsibility comes in.

To exemplify that point the Russians, prior to Turkey destroying their Su-24, did not even bother to arm their strike aircraft with short range AAM's because it was as you say unnecessary in a conflict with IS and they did not imagine this kind of attack from Turkey. That in my view is an initial failure in the planning of Russian operations to account for and mitigate unexpected scenarios. The S-400 is playing catch up to that failure. It is every nations responsibility to ensure their military personnel are adequately equipped and protected.
The point missing from your argument is that the event leading to the shot down was the cross border incursion. Turkey was not acting in a belligerent manner because it had given prior warning that it intends to implement the ROE's should there be further violation of its air space. In other words, no violation means no probable cause for any conflict. The question is what does Russia intends to accomplish with its S-400 and what are the ROE's for its usage? How is it going to differentiate between all these aircrafts when the S-400 radiates? How do you think the coalition aircraft will respond when its planes get painted? Presumably and hopefully the de-conflicting procedures are already in place. As I understand it today, coalition planes are specifically re-vectored to avoid sharing common airspace in the event of Russian planes in the vicinity as part of de-conflict procedures. The problem is when the S-400 radiates, it can cover a very wide area and that potentially can give rise to a multitude of problems and things can go bad very quickly.

I would say as far as international law is concerned it is still early to say Turkey was legally justified (perhaps even in violation of international law) to shoot down the Russian aircraft as the countries dispute the location of the Su-24 relative to the boarder and information out of Turkey on position, warnings and timing do not appear to add up with the speed the Su-24 would have been travelling and distance covered. In any case my response to Air Force Brat on responsibility was in the context of his scenario of F-22's striking S-400 positions in retaliation for Russia taking their pound of flesh for the Su-24 attack. I stand by my original posting.
I would just add that the presence of the S-400 seriously complicates already a very complex airspace. If Russia does not intend to it switch it on then why have it there? If it is switched on, how is it meant to work that it doesn't contribute to unwarranted accidents?


I don't think anyone seriously looking at the situation would describe it as a free pass but rather a potential consequence to a hostile action taken by Turkey. Action & Reaction. As with Turkey's justification in shooting down the Su-24, reasonable people will be free to debate the justification of Russia shooting down a Turkish aircraft, should that end up occurring. AFB's point to me seemed pretty specific when talking about a response of F-22's directed against S-400 positions. But I know you are at a disadvantage here in speaking for him so I'll leave it be.
What exactly is the S-400 meant to accomplish that cannot be accomplished by any other means? How are Turkish planes meant to be somehow distinguishable from other coalition aircraft. Say a SAM supposedly got directed at a Turkish F-16 which turned out to be a F-22. Mistakes do happen, then what?
 

delft

Brigadier
What exactly is the S-400 meant to accomplish that cannot be accomplished by any other means? How are Turkish planes meant to be somehow distinguishable from other coalition aircraft. Say a SAM supposedly got directed at a Turkish F-16 which turned out to be a F-22. Mistakes do happen, then what?
This discussion is becoming absurd. The presence of the S-400 battery is a response to the downing of a Su-24 that did or didn't violate Turkish airspace for a few seconds.

Removed OT phrase
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Brumby

Major
This discussion is becoming absurd.
Please explain your reasoning why the discussion is absurd.

The presence of the S-400 battery is a response to the downing of a Su-24 that did or didn't violate Turkish airspace for a few seconds.
Since the nature of this thread is about the presence of the S-400 in Syria, it should at least address two fundamentals points :
(i)What are the rules of engagement pertaining to the use of the S-400; and
(ii)How in practice is it meant to work in terms of IDing and de-conflicting procedures so that no unwarranted accidents happen

If such fundamental and basic premises are not discussed what then is the purpose of this thread?
 

Brumby

Major
US said they supported Turkey in the matter of the downing of the Su-24 protection their airspace for even a few seconds violation but when combating ISIL they are happy to violate Syrian airspace,
The conversation I was having with Zool was about the questionable purpose of the S-400, the issues of its presence, and the potential risks it introduces into the mix. The discussion isn't about the legality of the coalition operating in Syria. I intend to keep the conversation within scope and not be moderated for engaging in meaningless argument. If you have anything to add pertaining to the specifics I was having with Zool, I am happy to engage but please keep the conversation within scope.


Removed response to previous OT comments that were also removed
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Guys, this thread is about the S-400s in Syria and about their military utility and capabilities, the engagements they are involved in (if any), the military strategies (not to include politics or ideology), and the logistics, etc. necessary to operate them.

Please discuss those things to your heart's content.

But it is not (this thread)a place or a sounding board to air grievances against the US, Turkey, Syria, Russia or any of the other parties...or to discuss the political/ideological, or other reasoning and basis for the various actions.

That just leads to arguments and becomes inflammatory on one side or the other.

Thanks.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODEWRATION.
 

Zool

Junior Member
I think we are probably running ahead of ourselves until we know what the ROE's are leading to a hypothetical scenario of a Turkish plane being taken down. It is important to contrast with the recent downing of the Russian plane, where Turkey had made it clear upfront that the ROE's were any further cross border incursion will result in specific action against that intrusion. The Russians chose to ignore it. The question then is what ROE's had the Russians set that would justify a similar action? You just don't take out another nation's air asset because you feel like it. It must meet certain conditions.


There were protest by Turkey to Russia over previous incursions leading eventually to very specific ROE's issued by Turkey. The Russians just chose to ignore it. ROE's either have meaning or they do not.

I think you are getting hung up on ROE and what they entail. ROE are internal and generally unit and mission specific, not theater wide edicts issued for public consumption or as warning to neighbors. Mil-Mil lines of communication exist for the express purpose of coordination between forces. The Russians had this with Turkey prior to the Su-24 shoot down and ended it in the aftermath.

Now, you characterize the Russian's and Su-24 as making a deliberate choice to ignore the Turkish boundary, but I myself don't feel confident enough in the initial statements and then revisions put forward by Turkey to believe this without question. You may. My view is that Turkey acted irresponsibly, in support of it's own agenda in Syria (cross purposes to those of us living in the west), and against it's own publicly stated position on how brief airspace violations should be dealt with. There is a reason why aircraft are painted with insignia and intercepts are conducted instead of blind fire.

For reference, quotes from President Erdogan:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
|
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Given that S-400 are now brought in, what specific ROE's are there that warrant the application of it? This is where the irresponsibility comes in.

The point missing from your argument is that the event leading to the shot down was the cross border incursion. Turkey was not acting in a belligerent manner because it had given prior warning that it intends to implement the ROE's should there be further violation of its air space. In other words, no violation means no probable cause for any conflict. The question is what does Russia intends to accomplish with its S-400 and what are the ROE's for its usage? How is it going to differentiate between all these aircrafts when the S-400 radiates? How do you think the coalition aircraft will respond when its planes get painted? Presumably and hopefully the de-conflicting procedures are already in place. As I understand it today, coalition planes are specifically re-vectored to avoid sharing common airspace in the event of Russian planes in the vicinity as part of de-conflict procedures. The problem is when the S-400 radiates, it can cover a very wide area and that potentially can give rise to a multitude of problems and things can go bad very quickly.

What warrants the deployment of S-400 in Syria is the shoot down of the Su-24 by Turkey and Russia's need to protect against and deter a similar scenario going forward. That much seems self evident; what is not clear are the ROE issued to the battery operators and Strike/Fighter aircrew post Su-24 incident. As I said above, that is internal, mission specific and something we can only speculate about.

My guess would be that Russian forces will now operate on a higher state of alert and keep a close eye on any external aircraft headed towards the Syrian boarder, particularly from Turkey. They will identify (key point here), assess the threat and if deemed hostile, engage. Nothing unusual in that chain, however I suspect when it comes to threat assessment, any aircraft identified as Turkish and in proximity to the Syrian boarder will now have a much higher chance to be engaged as opposed to say a US or French aircraft. For obvious reasons.

In reality S-400, like any other combat system, does not operate alone and in a vacuum. The Russians will use ground, air and naval platforms to to monitor the skies and if Russia does end up shooting an aircraft down, I fully expect it will have been Turkish and properly identified by Russian Forces. Whether it is S-400, a fighter or a missile from a ship off the coast that scores the hit really does not matter.

I would just add that the presence of the S-400 seriously complicates already a very complex airspace. If Russia does not intend to it switch it on then why have it there? If it is switched on, how is it meant to work that it doesn't contribute to unwarranted accidents?

What exactly is the S-400 meant to accomplish that cannot be accomplished by any other means? How are Turkish planes meant to be somehow distinguishable from other coalition aircraft. Say a SAM supposedly got directed at a Turkish F-16 which turned out to be a F-22. Mistakes do happen, then what?

Yes S-400 brings an added complexity to the airspace but it's worse than that. As I said in the previous paragraph, Russian Forces as a whole will now be operating differently in Syria and that is a direct result of the Su-24 shoot down. The challenge in air operations has been brought about by that one Turkish action. I noted before that Russia did not bother to arm it's aircraft with short range AAM prior to the destruction of their Su-24 by Turkey, because those altitudes of operation were not part of the battlespace in the conflict with IS. Increased AAM loadouts and S-400 deployment are steps Russia has taken to deter similar scenarios and protect it's personnel. That is what is meant to be accomplished.
 

Brumby

Major
I think you are getting hung up on ROE and what they entail. ROE are internal and generally unit and mission specific, not theater wide edicts issued for public consumption or as warning to neighbors. Mil-Mil lines of communication exist for the express purpose of coordination between forces. The Russians had this with Turkey prior to the Su-24 shoot down and ended it in the aftermath.
I agree ROE's are typically an internal set of engagement rules. However the airspace in Syria today is not your typical benign environment. There are high risk of unwarranted incidents or accidents which can be mitigated by a set of transparent rules be it engagement or de-conflicting. Uncertainty enhances risk. Precisely the reason why the US emphasis of ensuring de-conflicting rules are agreed upon.

Now, you characterize the Russian's and Su-24 as making a deliberate choice to ignore the Turkish boundary, but I myself don't feel confident enough in the initial statements and then revisions put forward by Turkey to believe this without question. You may. My view is that Turkey acted irresponsibly, in support of it's own agenda in Syria (cross purposes to those of us living in the west), and against it's own publicly stated position on how brief airspace violations should be dealt with. There is a reason why aircraft are painted with insignia and intercepts are conducted instead of blind fire.

For reference, quotes from President Erdogan:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
|
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
I have no intention of re-opening the debate over the Turkish/Russian plane shot down incident because they have been debated to death whether on the legality, reasonableness, sensibility or technicalities of the facts. The only reason I made reference to it is the point that Turkey has made known up front on what the engagement rules would be. Whether you agree with actions of Turkey in shooting down the Russian is irrelevant because my main point is that the engagement rules were known and communicated and this is a fact. Why is this important? The reason is when we talk about any hypotheticals and the S-400 being an instrument as a payback, rules become important because besides Turkey there are other coalition aircraft operating within the Syrian airspace.

What warrants the deployment of S-400 in Syria is the shoot down of the Su-24 by Turkey and Russia's need to protect against and deter a similar scenario going forward. That much seems self evident; what is not clear are the ROE issued to the battery operators and Strike/Fighter aircrew post Su-24 incident. As I said above, that is internal, mission specific and something we can only speculate about.
Non transparency is a justifiable position provided such ambiguity doesn't present a risk or threat to other planes operating within Syrian airspace.

My guess would be that Russian forces will now operate on a higher state of alert and keep a close eye on any external aircraft headed towards the Syrian boarder, particularly from Turkey. They will identify (key point here), assess the threat and if deemed hostile, engage. Nothing unusual in that chain, however I suspect when it comes to threat assessment, any aircraft identified as Turkish and in proximity to the Syrian boarder will now have a much higher chance to be engaged as opposed to say a US or French aircraft. For obvious reasons.
Your description of probable scenario involving Turkish and other coalition aircraft is IMHO a recipe that invites scope for unwarranted conflict. How does the Russians operating the S-400 ID between Turkish and other coalition planes? What exactly is meant by assess as threat? What conditions qualified as a threat? Why is Turkish aircraft subject to higher chance of being engaged separate from that of threat assessment? Under what established rules of engagement has Turkish aircraft becomes fair game? Has Russia/Syria announced a no fly zone for Turkish aircraft?.

In reality S-400, like any other combat system, does not operate alone and in a vacuum. The Russians will use ground, air and naval platforms to to monitor the skies and if Russia does end up shooting an aircraft down, I fully expect it will have been Turkish and properly identified by Russian Forces. Whether it is S-400, a fighter or a missile from a ship off the coast that scores the hit really does not matter.
Do you seriously believe that such an attitude towards taking down Turkish planes would not come with mistakes. There is a history to learn from :
(I)Tornado and F-18 shot down by Patriot in 2003;
(ii)TU-154 shot down by SA-5 in 2001;
(iii)A-300 shot down by USS Vincennes in 1988; and
(iv)Most recently Boeing 777 shot down by Buk

Yes S-400 brings an added complexity to the airspace but it's worse than that. As I said in the previous paragraph, Russian Forces as a whole will now be operating differently in Syria and that is a direct result of the Su-24 shoot down. The challenge in air operations has been brought about by that one Turkish action. I noted before that Russia did not bother to arm it's aircraft with short range AAM prior to the destruction of their Su-24 by Turkey, because those altitudes of operation were not part of the battlespace in the conflict with IS. Increased AAM loadouts and S-400 deployment are steps Russia has taken to deter similar scenarios and protect it's personnel. That is what is meant to be accomplished.
Russian actions do not exist in a vacuum. There are coalition aircrafts operating in that airspace. You seem to have this blase attitude that the S-400 will just light up, paint the aircrafts, lock on them and the coalition aircrafts will just ignore it without some form of agreed de-conflicting rules.
 
Top