Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Air Force Brat]

According to eyeball rcs specialists, who haven't even saw final article?
But ok, maybe Sukhoi shall hire some from forums. Better late than never.

All 4 existing 5th designs have big compromises in their RCS approaches. Yes, certainly including the f-35.


There are several organisations, known for shooting down airliners.
One of them, accidentally is the US.
But US are too powerful to be punished for several hundreds of innosent lives. Who cares about innocent Iranian lives in Washington, DC, anyways. They can't strike back, can they?


Yes, yes, a2a-focused heavy fighter, essentially purpose-designed to fight 5th gen opposition, certainly will lose to 5th gen light fighter-bomber, designed to replace f-16, a-10 and a-6.

5 fifth Gens, don't forget the FC-31,,, people who do know about such things have stated that the Su-57 is lacking in L/O, in fact the Russians admitted as much when it comes to "shaping", and stated that the use of composites would lower the RCS of the Su-57....

you want to believe that? its fine with me?? really, I'm very confident in my sources, but what you and I believe isn't going to be a "Kingdom Changing Issue", now is it??

I love the Su-57, hell I'd buy a bunch of em, just because its so "damned gorgeous", but honestly, I'm glad its not to L/O. So yes the F-35 is a much stealthier airplane, throw in censor fusion, and that kool helmet... Hawk Carlisle stated the F-35 might actually be stealthier than the Raptor?? He's in the know....

 

[gelgoog]

LOL, no, its not very L/O, its not very L/O by their own admission, and its short on thrust if we compare it to the F-22, which was their target, not the F-35..

So you believe what you want to, but in a 1 to 1 with an F-35, that bird is going down, that beautiful doll will "paint" very nicely...
...

Meh. There is a reason why the Russians are refraining from making major purchases until the new engine enters production.
The Izdeleye 30 is supposed to tbe competitive with the P&W F119. In fact even the engine they had in the early prototypes is good enough to be competitive in terms of reheat (combat) performance. Their main issues are with dry thrust and reliability. If they were that concerned with the opposition they have in their own airspace they would have put it into production as it is. The fact they haven't tells a lot of things. Do you really need the Su-57 to combat Polish F-16s?

The Su-57 was designed first with maneuverability in mind. That is actually quite a good idea. An excessive focus on stealth can lead to an aircraft which becomes totally obsolete with more modern sensor technology. It has good enough L/O characteristics. I would place it somewhere in between the F-22 and the F-35 in those terms. The Russians did not go full on the stealth bandwagon because they know it would result in an expensive to build and maintain aircraft which would quite likely have had worse kinematic performance.

The funny thing about stealth is that the US has recently embargoed Japanese sales of composites to Russia with regards to the MC-21 project. A lot of people don't know but the "secret sauce" of the F-22 is actually Japanese composite materials. That's the world's leader in technology for you. They can't compete unless they disable the competition somehow. Allegedly, they claimed, the Russians could use them to build combat aircraft. But it pretty much not the case at least in the prototypes the Russians made which clearly used their own composite technology.

Still, it did mean the Russian civilian aerospace industry has had to ramp up production of composites faster than planned and that will likely mean the Russian infrastructure for military composites will be able to manufacture them at scale and lower cost than they would have had the US not applied those sanctions. So I expect these shenanigans to have cause the MC-21 program to be delayed two years but the military fighter program quite likely was moved forward by a similar amount.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Meh. There is a reason why the Russians are refraining from making major purchases until the new engine enters production.
The Izdeleye 30 is supposed to tbe competitive with the P&W F119. In fact even the engine they had in the early prototypes is good enough to be competitive in terms of reheat (combat) performance. Their main issues are with dry thrust and reliability. If they were that concerned with the opposition they have in their own airspace they would have put it into production as it is. The fact they haven't tells a lot of things. Do you really need the Su-57 to combat Polish F-16s?

The Su-57 was designed first with maneuverability in mind. That is actually quite a good idea. An excessive focus on stealth can lead to an aircraft which becomes totally obsolete with more modern sensor technology. It has good enough L/O characteristics. I would place it somewhere in between the F-22 and the F-35 in those terms. The Russians did not go full on the stealth bandwagon because they know it would result in an expensive to build and maintain aircraft which would quite likely have had worse kinematic performance.

Those Polish Pilots are damned good, I'd suggest you watch your six! so yes, you do! anyway, I'm far off topic here, so thanks for the "stimulating conversation", really, you gents make my life interesting, Blessings to each and all of you!

 

[Gloire_bb]

5 fifth Gens, don't forget the FC-31,,, people who do know about such things have stated that the Su-57 is lacking in L/O, in fact the Russians admitted as much when it comes to "shaping", and stated that the use of composites would lower the RCS of the Su-57....

you want to believe that? its fine with me?? really, I'm very confident in my sources, but what you and I believe isn't going to be a "Kingdom Changing Issue", now is it??

I love the Su-57, hell I'd buy a bunch of em, just because its so "damned gorgeous", but honestly, I'm glad its not to L/O. So yes the F-35 is a much stealthier airplane, throw in censor fusion, and that kool helmet... Hawk Carlisle stated the F-35 might actually be stealthier than the Raptor?? He's in the know....

Ah, then 8, x-32, 35 and yf-23 not to be forgotten either.
FC-31 is a demonstrator aircraft at this stage, with unknown degree of similarity to the production article.
I am 100% sure f-35 may very well be stealthier than the raptor. Just find an appropriate angle and wavelength, and include their different operational concepts and purposes.
Overall, its geometry is a greater compromise than that of the raptor.
And while technology is moving forward, laws of physics remain unchanged.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

I think the Russians have been working on the problem long enough that I would not be surprised if the radar was at least as capable as the F-22 radar once it comes out.

Well in 2025 Or 2030 sure. But given it's now 2019 and Russian orders are still nebulous they seem to have all the time in the world. I am starting to suspect F22 will get it's mid life overhaul before SU57 goes to production.

so yes the Su-57 is the most beautiful of all the supposed 5 Gens, but honestly the Su-57 is really more 4+++ than 5 Gen

Brat I disagree. SU57 is a fifth gen in that it was designed from day zero to have a very small RCS. However I don't think anything we have seen is the "real" Su57. With maybe a bakers dozen and counting these birds are Russia still early in there Stealth learning cycle. By the time we had YF22 we had already flown YF117, F117, B2, Senior Trend, Senior Prom, Tacit Blue and many more LO experimental Types. The Russians don't have that history. The Chinese J20 started out looking totally different from those we see today and was a constant evolution as each early prototype evolved until they nailed the current block.
The Russians seem to be in that early stage working through prototype to prototype to learn LO through trial and Error as well as constant remodels. One issue we see is clearly the type using "bolt on" features.

unlike the f-35

I believe Su-57 matches all criteria of 5 gen excepts stealth. F-35 also fails on super cruise.

Depends on who you are talking to on whether Super cruise or Super maneuver is part of the package.
For Air superiority Yes.

LOL, no, its not very L/O, its not very L/O by their own admission, and its short on thrust if we compare it to the F-22, which was their target, not the F-35

Again I disagree on this one but because we have some other Fifth gens in the works that trade off more LO for cost and payload. Even F35 trades some LO when B and C pack there gun pods.
Clearly The Su57 That exists today are far more LO than any previous Russian machine.

The F-22 owns the supercruise kingdom

As it was intended to Escourt bombers and kill Flankers.

recall the F-35 was designed to be an A-10 replacement, so no one imagined or ever stated it would supercruise

Not quite it was always targeted for the Air force to replace F16. Infact Impact the A10 requirement came fairly late. F35 was the result of 4 or 5 fighter programs from the 1980s and early 1990s the Multi role Fighter of the USAF, ASTOVL strike fighter, CALF of Navair and JAST of the Navy USAF. In particular they targeted the Hornet and Viper.

According to eyeball rcs specialists, who haven't even saw final article?
But ok, maybe Sukhoi shall hire some from forums. Better late than never.

All 4 existing 5th designs have big compromises in their RCS approaches. Yes, certainly including the f-35.

The Russians have openly said they focused on maneuver and post thrust maneuver over RCS reduction.

in fact the Russians admitted as much when it comes to "shaping", and stated that the use of composites would lower the RCS of the Su-57....

exactly.

, yes, a2a-focused heavy fighter, essentially purpose-designed to fight 5th gen opposition, certainly will lose to 5th gen light fighter-bomber, designed to replace f-16, a-10 and a-6.

F/A18, AV8B+, F111 to. But that F16 is one that you should laser on. Until F22, the F16 Viper was the most nimble fighter in US inventory sure it may not post stall but it's not a fighter to take

So yes the F-35 is a much stealthier airplane, throw in censor fusion, and that kool helmet

Despite what it may seem @Gloire_bb It's possible. The F35 has a top of the line radar, very good LO and then there is the DAS and EOTS. Basically all around IRST vs single IRST. Heck that system has advantages that Raptor Drivers salivate over.

Meh. There is a reason why the Russians are refraining from making major purchases until the new engine enters production.
The Izdeleye 30 is supposed to tbe competitive with the P&W F119. In fact even the engine they had in the early prototypes is good enough to be competitive in terms of reheat (combat) performance.

The Spin is strong with this. Note how all Russian advanced technology military projects all hit walls at the same time. Sure the engines on paper might be good. But the more likely issue is money and the Russian economy.

The funny thing about stealth is that the US has recently embargoed Japanese sales of composites to Russia with regards to the MC-21 project. A lot of people don't know but the "secret sauce" of the F-22 is actually Japanese composite materials

Bogus the Sanctions stopped delivery of US Made parts and Japanese parts with US made elements.

 

[gelgoog]

Toray Industries is the world's largest carbon fiber manufacturer. They're Japanese.

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No they didn't "copy" someone else or use someone else's technology. The Japanese have been leaders in the field for decades.

Not "all" Russian advanced technology military projects hit walls. They focused on the priority areas which were missile defense and the strategic nuclear deterrent. For the conventional weapons platforms they focused on producing upgraded versions of the platforms they already had in production while funding the development of totally new platforms. This can be seen with the Su-30M/Su-35 and T-72B3/T-90. It was the most cost-effective approach they had. At the same time they are developing platforms like the Su-57 or the T-14 Armata. Given the long development cycle of an entirely new weapons platform there is little else they could have done even if they had all the financial resources in the world at their disposal. Both those weapons platforms will use next to none of the components used in previous platforms when they reach actual batch production status.

When you consider the amount of money wasted on projects like Crusader, Future Combat Systems, GCV Infantry Combat Vehicle, Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle, the Littoral Combat Ship, or even in aircraft ludicrous programs like the KC-46 tanker, or even projects like the F-22 which I personally consider to be a failure (both economically and in terms of deterrence value). Seriously, it's a miracle the Russians do as much as they do with the budget they have. Or perhaps the US is just incompetent at weapons development I don't know.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Well in 2025 Or 2030 sure.

F-22 array is a mid-2000s tech. 25 yr tech gap in radar development is a delusion of enormous proportions, especially given what original gap in radar technology wasn't about array, it was about processing(microelectronics).
If anything, first phased array radar on fighter appeared in the Soviet Union, decades before it started appearing elsewhere.

The Russians have openly said they focused on maneuver and post thrust maneuver over RCS reduction.

Not "over RCS reduction". Over certain USAF platforms(F-22), which clearly sacrificed more of the same specs to achieve their stealthiness(and other key parts of its tech lead) on a much earlier date than competition. Most of these sacrifices were compensated through simple power of f119, which indeed are 20 years ahead of any competition(due to collapse of the SU, but it's still true), but not all.
If anything, key RCS sacrifices seem to happen not due to maneuvering capability, but to keep long central volume for weapon bays, yet retain enough strength and area ruling.
Other big drivers are rich sensor/self defense suite, and, arguably top speed(questionable).

But that F16 is one that you should laser on

Yeah, exactly. And f-16 is two main things:
Air2ground delivery platform of choice(f-15e fills another niche)
Secondary air2air (with much more dedicated, if smaller, f-22 and f-15c communities)
Furthermore, f-16 is numbers. Numbers mean price. Price is function of reasonable choice of priorities onboard.

It doesn't mean what f-35(and -16) aren't fully capable 5th(and 4th) gen fighters in their own right. Just in case.

The F35 has a top of the line radar, very good LO and then there is the DAS and EOTS. Basically all around IRST vs single IRST.

Top of the line - sure. But this phrase doesn't end the assesement of a device, only its technological level.
F-35 EOTS isn't even an a2a-tuned sensor, working in suboptimal wavelengths for this purpose(yes, decade-old PIRATE is just better in a2a), and additionally hampered by stealthy cover optical properties(the USAF always said what LPI provides enough capability in the same area for no aditional price). OLS-57, on the other end, is an a2a-focused device.
DAS, due to protracted development of the f-35, is much less disrupting than it could've been without delays.
It is still revolutionary, but not because it is distributed(not only su-57 and j-20 but also newer 4.5 gens have the same approach).
It is a completely different information processing approach which is really special.

 

[gelgoog]

The F-35 EOTS according to several sources sacrifices long range detection in favor of all around detection. So the optimization parameters are basically the opposite of a typical IRST system. It's not worse, but it isn't the same thing really.
It's more similar to something like a night vision system or LANTIRN than IRST.

Also, it's not like you can't add a system like that to a fighter as a mid life upgrade. So I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians simply skipped it in the initial production version. It's expensive, would use require semiconductor manufacturing capabilities, and then there are the integration issues.
Much of the technology developed could be shared with other military programs I guess. But it would seriously delay this program.

 

[Jura The idiot]

three years ago, Feb 8, 2016

I normally don't post conjecture but now I will:
the negativity about "stealth aircraft", which one often finds in Russian Internet, calls for a question
Why Does Russia Bother With PAKFA?
and I think that's because they need 5th Gen aircraft to tweak their radars against 5th Gen aircraft, I mean to look what actually shows once a Swarm comes, a Squadron comes, how many aircraft passed undetected at these conditions etc. etc. Once they evaluate it, they'll see like "The Nyebo works!" or "oops, we need more PAKFAs!"

and don't have much to add to this, LOL

 

[Gloire_bb]

three years ago, Feb 8, 2016

and don't have much to add to this, LOL

Far too expensive and persistent to be like this.
Pak fa alone is an enormous investment.
And it isn't just the plane, it's the whole ecosystem.