Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Let's just take this as an example, too lazy to dig deeper.
Comparing fighters by living standards is incredibly comprehensive. Ah, no, it's actually not.
Again, short:
1.science on air combat continuously develop in Russian military institutes and alike, just like in any other country big enough. Perhaps direction is somewhat different, but overall views on "what is 5th gen fighter", "do we need one" and "what we need it for" aren't produced just on forums or by Mr.Putin himself.
Moreover, larger part of these requirements and views dates back to the times if the Soviet Union.
2.Soviet Union knew about stealth. Russia also does. Probably more than guys on forums, because, again, it's military science.
3.fighter was designed to perform a range of given tasks within given conditions.
Design was specifically checked to meet these requirements. If it couldn't meet them even on the drawing board, well, it wouldn't had been started and/or given a "go" to begin with.
4.most of them have no relationship to stupid solo or even group duel between 5th gen fighters whatsoever. But still it's quite an obvious air superiority platform.
5.unrelated, but AFAIC, mig-41 is a real program. Other "details" are mostly fanboish, though.

Can you please try to understand the context of the conversation. Go back and read everything again. I can't explain everything. Everything I have said is in direct response to something raised earlier. I wouldn't bring living standards out of nowhere unless someone else decided to throw it in there stupidly as if to prove a point.

Yes Soviet Union and Russia knows stealth probably very well. That does not mean you can build one or know how to defeat one. Everything else was just sarcasm for b787.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
‘Izdeliye 30 (Izd.30)16.5 tons

Before i have see 18 tons so more close than F-119 15.9 tons, remains an engine !

First pictures of Izd.30 ?

While initially the communication around the PAK FA program, now Su-57, was broader; the program has become much more discreet over the past three years.

This followed - in particular - the fire of the T-50-5 prototype and the relocation of part of the test program to Akhtubinsk: this base is considered to be particularly locked and inaccessible for the average person. It is there that a large part of the evaluation and development tests of the available prototypes take place. In addition, the "institutional" communication around the program and its recent developments is much more framed and strict as we approach the end of the tests.

The Izdeliye 30 (Izd.30) is one of the cornerstones of the project: this new engine developed by NPO Saturn is a completely new product (so we distanced ourselves finally from the AL-31 and its variants) which should provide the Su-57 a basic feature of the so-called 5th generation devices; the supercruiser.

The latter is the ability of an aircraft to fly at supersonic speed without the use of afterburner. This obviously allows to significantly reduce the consumption of the device.

The PAK FA program has a motorization development plan that is focused in two stages; initially, the prototypes are mounted with two Izdeliye 117 engines (AL-41F1) similar to the Izdeliye 117S engines (AL-41F1S) mounted on the Su-35S. In a second time, a completely new engine must come to equip the standard equipment: the Izdeliye 30.

The Izd.117 that is currently equipped with the Su-57 prototypes is a heavily modernized variant of the AL-31F that propels the Su-27. Consisting of new high and low pressure turbines, an optimized combustion chamber and a new digital management system (FADEC); this engine offers performance that does not fully meet the final needs of PAK FA. Hence its use not to delay the development of the project pending the arrival of the final engine.

The development of Izd.30 began in 2011 and NPO Saturn is in charge of the development of this new engine. The technical design of the engine was completed in June 2015 and a little over a year later in September 2016, the director of KnAAZ (the factory that produces the Su-57) announced that the prototypes of the Izd. 30 have been built and bench tests are underway.

This announcement was confirmed by Sergei Korotkov (UAC Russia Vice President) and it now appears that the first prototype PAK FA mounted with Izd.30 engines is expected to fly by the end of 2017 or early 2018. It would not Moreover, it is not at all unlikely that the latest prototype still awaited, the T-50-10, be fitted with these engines. Which would explain why he has not been seen so much yet.
However, despite a development that has already been going on for 6 years, the information available on Izd.30 is close to absolute zero. NPO Saturn holds an absolute silence on the project and except a "sketch" of the latter and basic and not very precise technical characteristics; there is no information available on this project.

The objectives sought by NPO Saturn are, quite logically; increased power (we are talking about a thrust class that oscillates between 16 and 17 tons dry), weight reduction (about 150 Kg compared to Izd.117), internal structure reworked to reduce consumption and finally " thermal signature reduction measures ". In other words: nothing concrete to put in the tooth. It is just a catalog of broad general lines on which all engine manufacturers work.

The only thing that is "confirmed" follows a statement from the CEO of UEC (United Engines Corporation) that expects 17 to 18% thrust gain for Izd.30 compared to Izd.117. This confirms the expected class of thrust between 16 and 17 tons (the Izd.117 is at 14.5 tons of thrust).

Where things get interesting is in the photos published by the Rostec Holding on October 18th illustrating a visit by the Mayor of Moscow, Sergei Sobyanin, to the Salyut facilities in Moscow. While the Salyut factories mainly produce the AL-21 engines for the Su-24M and the AL-31F engines (and variants) for the Su-27s (and variants); the photo of an unknown engine in the battalion and presenting an original nozzle raised a lot of questions.

The visible nozzle is of a type never seen until now and has a specific form designed to reduce the radar signature of the engine. Indeed, it has a notched end which is composed of "teeth" characteristic of the desired effect. However, there is currently no documented Salyut product that has such a design ...

... It did not take more to see the Internet stir and present this enigmatic engine as the first images of the Izd.30. So is this really the case ?

In fact, there is no definite answer but the available elements tend towards a negative answer. Why?
Despite all the media precautions surrounding the program, Russia would let such a photo leak in the press via an official organ without further consideration? No, the idea is not credible. While the Russians may control their Internet a little less than other countries, this kind of gross mistake is not even possible. Not in 2017

Salyut is not the manager of the Izd.30 program. The latter is in the hands of NPO Saturn who is in charge of the development and manufacture of the engine. It is obvious that these two manufacturers are part of the same state holding (UEC); they work hand in hand, one subcontractor for the other. However, it would be very doubtful to see the "main producer" leaking information from one of his subcontractors without reacting quickly.

The first Izd.30 to be visible shortly on a prototype PAK FA; it would seem much more logical to wait for the first flight of the latter to speak in extenso of its existence. The media coup would be much more important.

This being the case, no one is immune from an error and this photo could be a photo of Izd.30 published by mistake. However, if this were the case, it is reasonable to think that the photos have been "discreetly" replaced by others since then. One can also consider the option that this nozzle is a life-size test mounted on an AL-31F to test the behavior of the nozzle that will equip the Izd.30.

But if it is not the Izd.30 and / or its nozzle, the question is: who is the buyer of this engine? The most plausible is the option of China and this to use on one of the many local programs still calling on Russian engine manufacturers. Waiting for an answer and possible clarification: this mysterious engine will remain a little more.

And this only confirms the obvious: we know absolutely nothing (or almost) of the Izd.30 and the Russians seem firmly resolved to keep silence as long as possible on the latter. Despite the abundant literature available on the Internet, the PAK FA program still has large areas of darkness that are voluntarily maintained by the Russians; and for reasons that need not be explained so much they seem obvious.

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Dizasta1

Senior Member
I can say that I am not surprised at certain remarks on this thread about "Russian Propaganda", or Russia being incapable of designing, developing and building an aircraft like the F-22 Raptor.

I grew up in an era when the Soviet-American "propaganda machines" were churning out their versions of what was the truth. About who had the bigger guns, who has more influence over which region, military bases and so on. All of which was based on war profiteering, fear mongering and so on. But there among us humans who have understood that the Soviet Union of yesterday, was born out of the criminal Bolshevik Revolution. That the Russia today, is NOT atheist, NOT comimunist, NOT war mongering, NOT attempting to dominate the world. Rather, the Russia of today is what it would have been, prior to the Bolshevik plunder and pillage. Orthodox Christians, who had no aspiration of having hundreds military bases around the world or spending 600 billion USD a year for no apparent reason.

So please, spare us the whole bs about "Russian Propaganda."

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, all wars started have not started by Russia. In the past two decades we have witness the dismemberment of Iraq, carnage in Afghanistan, destruction ot Libya, merciless and unabated bombing of Yemen and the most vile and sinister ploys adopted to destroy Syria. These wars have happened by chance, or could be justified as legitimate wars to liberate a people. So to say that Russia is using "Hyper War" tactics by influencing elections in Western countries, or something else, is pure hysteria and unfounded accusations. As a Pakistani, I can tell you how America has directly influenced the leadership and it's selection in my country. Be it Zia-ul-Haq, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Shareef or that clown, Asif Zardari. So when someone like me would read stuff about Russia this or Russia that, they would not believe a word of it.

As for Russia building an aircraft like the F-22s. Well they have a completely different approach toward advance tech, armament and budget allocations. Unlike the United States, Russia doesn't borrow off billions of dollars through the federal reserve to pay out for exorbitantly expensive stealth aircraft. Add to that, Russians have a different approach toward war fighting and armament of its military. They aren't stupid like the Soviets were, in pouring billions upon billions of rubles to match the Americans. That was the sort of suicidal approach which ended the Communists for good. Russia today, is much smarter, realistic and prudent in the way it mitigates present and future challenges. But they go a step further. They are fair in their dealings and do their best to follow the international law. Unless of course, contrived "regime change" forces their hand to take action. Even in such cases, the Russians have demostrated far greater restraint and responsible action. When compared to the rest. Best example is Libya, where it was astonishing to bare witness to the way everyone lined up with their special forces, aircraft carriers, war ships and fighter jets. Destroying Libya from the core.

This is the sort of irresponsible behavior that has inflicted irreversible distrust in western policy, by the rest of the world. And the world today isn't easily swayed into believing such nonsense that spews out of CNN, BBC, Fox, Reuters and the likes. As their credibility has been severely damaged through their own acts.
 

b787

Captain
Sales brochure always medium.. for business mainly we don't have in general nice infos we like
But you read anti French fanbois sites :mad: to joke ofc ;)
80 km
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In more detection range depends RCS and radars powers and many types... saying in general average a stealth is detectable to about 50 km less for F-22.

And quite sure the Meteor 100+ km is more close of 200 than 100...


It is not easy to have exact infos especialy with IRSTs ,

For IRST range you mention she is for detection 145 km for F-35's IRST which is the best with the PIRATE on the Typhoon, Su-57 OLS-50 max 90+ km is less good but to this range your not sure if it is a bandit... so the good range is the identification which really allow to engage an ennemy which is to max for 2 IRST i have mentionned to about 50 - 60 km*, 50 % a difference.
And it is the max when you see the rear ofc frontal IR signature is very reduced...

And if you calculate in comparison with radar detection ranges and ofc radar power différents, RCS etc... IRST allow a range a little superior to radar vs a stealth especialy the F-22 but he have the more low IR signature and very possible even quite sure the range i have mentionned don't worck vs him.

EM radar emissions are the more visible but possible the drivers can use a brief time without to be detected normaly... APG-77 is considered enough discret.

For the the short game /WVR combat the Su-57 is the only one who can pose problems to F-22 eventualy the Su-35 the J-20 is inferior not bad ofc but don't have TVC in more no Winchester and with all problems for engines we wait for the next...

* the first IRSTs on Mig-29/9-12 and Su-27P was capable identified to only 12 - 15 km !
I agree but radars improve, the F-22 can not change its shape, F-22 will be detected at ranges for fighters to fire missiles.

Plus F-22 fires its missiles at long ranges thus it gives time to avoid them.


In my opinion fighters like F-18E, Su-35 and Rafale still have a lot of future if they pack external stealthy weapons pods, thus in my opinion Su-57 was designed upon a fighter with high agility as Rafale or Su-35 with slightly little bit more stealth.

The side bays also in Su-57 are incredibly smart, they have aerodynamic functions increasing lift and the carry weapons, they are big aerodynamic fences kind of dogteeth like the ones seen in MiG-23`s wing
 
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timepass

Brigadier
INDIAN AIR FORCE REPORTEDLY NOT KEEN ON PAK-FA

PAK-FA-TASS-01-692x360.jpg


The Indian Air Force (IAF) is reportedly urging New Delhi to withdraw from the PAK-FA – also designated Su-57 and Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) – next-generation fighter program, which is being developed in collaboration between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Sukhoi.

A senior IAF official told
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that the “IAF is not keen to continue with the program.” Some of the IAF’s concerns with the PAK-FA reportedly include insufficient reduction in radar cross-section (RCS), especially in comparison to the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II.

The PAK-FA is a collaborative effort between Russia’s various design bureaus, but spearheaded by Sukhoi, which saw relatively strong export success with its Su-30 Flanker-line in the 1990s and 2000s.

India was envisaged as the launch overseas customer of the PAK-FA/FGFA. However, the development of the PAK-FA has been tumultuous, namely in regards to Russia’s ability to demonstrate that it can produce the requisite technologies for 5th-generation fighters, such as electronic subsystems.

In July, IHS Jane’s reported that the Russian Aerospace Force (VKS) itself was uninterested in inducting the Su-57. The VKS is reportedly satisfied with the Su-35 Flanker-E.
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Furthermore, the IAF had received limited assurance from United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) in regards to requested design changes.
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There were also concerns regarding the PAK-FA’s next-generation turbofan engine, Project 30, which is to be 30% lighter than the AL-41F1 and more fuel efficient. Currently, the PAK-FA prototypes are flying with the AL-41F1. It is unclear when Project 30 will come to fruition.

The IAF could still be reeling from the
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of its Su-30MKI fleet in the early-to-mid 2010s. Issues with the Su-30MKI’s powerplant and insufficient in-house maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) capabilities, mainly due to insufficient access to timely spare parts from Russia, had caused the IAF Su-30MKI fleet’s operational availability rate to drop to less than 60% in 2015.

Though the two sides principally agreed to transfer the production of Su-30MKI spare parts to India, there have been snags in the implementation of the agreement. The Indian Ministry of Defence stated that UAC was reluctant to transfer the requisite technology to India’s private sector (
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).

HAL is confident that the FGFA will succeed, arguing that the depth of technology-transfer being offered to India under the PAK-FA is not available elsewhere.

“We are still hopeful. It is an opportunity for the industry as well as for the country. This is an opportunity for us to go in for this kind of (high) technology which has not been offered to us by any other country,” said HAL Chairman and Managing Director T Suvarna Raju to the
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.

The IAF Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Shirish Baban Deo echoed the HAL Chairman’s sentiments,
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“When it comes to technology transfer, Russia really offers everything they have from the heart without any strings attached.”

Notes & Comments:

India’s pursuit of an original 5th-generation fighter will be a long-term endeavour, even if India continues with the FGFA/PAK-FA. There an expedient avenue in requesting the F-35 from the U.S., though this will likely bar India from immediately accessing the Lightning II’s technologies. However, the F-35 would offer that substantive qualitative gain and next-generation airpower capability sooner than the FGFA. India can also look at tying the F-35 to technical support to the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

The other aspect to consider is the Rafale. In August, the IAF
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pushed for an additional 36 Rafales to augment the 36 currently on order. If the Su-30MKI fleet’s efficacy is in question (due to supply channel challenges with Russia), then it could be prudent to expand the Rafale fleet and fully capitalize upon its forthcoming qualitative gains, such as its long-range AESA radar, long-range air-to-air, stand-off strike capabilities and 75%+ guaranteed (by Dassault) operational rate. This can be had sooner than the FGFA.

It should be noted that the PAK-FA falling through does not necessitate an end to joint Indo-Russian work on a next-generation fighter. The IAF’s concerns could be simply be in regards to the PAK-FA specifically, though it is possible that Russian design and development assistance can still be sought for a new design. Both HAL and the IAF are of the view that in terms of next-generation technology development, India will not access more elsewhere than it would in Russia.


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Dizasta1

Senior Member
INDIAN AIR FORCE REPORTEDLY NOT KEEN ON PAK-FA

Unfortunately the indians are drinking the F-35 cool-aid. They believe that only a super-stealth like that of F-35 (which in itself is inferior to F-22s) is the benchmark they require the Su-57s to reach when it comes to its RCS. To be honest, it doesn't matter what the indians think. They ought to thank their lucky stars they are even getting a genuine Stealth Aircraft. The Russian design approach is different, based on what they deem important for superiority in Air-Combat. Too much emphasis on stealth means you are sacrificing the aircraft's agility. In the age of HOBS/HMD, the agility factor is even more crucial to have. The indian air force is just acting out like a little child. They know that they can't walk away from the FGFA program as there is money invested in this program. They will have a good stealth fighter in the shape of the FGFA. However it won't be the same as Su-57s. The Russians know how cushy their so-called indian allies with America.

Whichever the case, there is no doubt that Russia will consistently and continously improve and enhance the Su-57's design, capability and performance. This aircraft has a long and prosperous road ahead of it. And there is a lot of great technological innovations which will be incorporated in this aircraft and any other spin-off variants of it.
 
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