Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by A Bar Brother, Dec 23, 2014.

  1. b787
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    b787 Senior Member

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    To understand PAKFA you have to see what they say, Russia hs issued the PAKFA patent long time ago here are some extracts

    The patent says why they used the Su-27 basic layout and the shortcomings they saw on F-22, this is another translation of the patent

    [​IMG]
    this is an Article by Paul Bulat which explains why they used regular nozzles and not flattened ones

     
    #1121 b787, Feb 4, 2016
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  2. b787
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    b787 Senior Member

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    here you can see the Russians studied the flat nozzles
    [​IMG]

    Now let us see their view on Stealth

    They claim PAKFA is stealthier upon some angles and less stealthy at others than F-22, but in general it is stealthier
    RT - T-50 Pak Fa Stealth Fighter Has RCS Of Tennis Ball With Passive Stealth Technology
     
    #1122 b787, Feb 4, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
  3. tphuang
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    tphuang Super Moderator
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    I'm assuming that since India will be getting this at the start of production run, the cost will naturally be high at that point. Of course, we also need to see what else gets included in the contract =)
     
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  4. Air Force Brat
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    Air Force Brat Senior Member

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    So here we are again, I would note that we have referred to PAK-FA as the F-22Ski, and the resemblance is striking, yes the Russians have attempted to copy the F-22?? just as they did the B-17 and B-29. They have an airplane that flies well, and I will make an assumption that it possibly could be as maneuverable or even more maneuverable than the F-22, maybe faster, whatever?

    But, you are a modeler, I am a pilot, nothing wrong with either, but I understand pitch, yaw, and roll in a way that only a "practitioner" may? You are able to interpret the Russian? that's helpful, but I am able to interpret the "fluid dynamics" and shaping as an end user. I have read and studied the flying characteristics of literally hundreds of aircraft, from ultralights to the A-380. You may not realize it, but the 747 had some very serious issues with flutter beyond a certain Mach #, it required a massive amount of intuition and engineering to turn the 747 into the very safe, fine flying aircraft that became the world standard for decades, the A-380 also has had to overcome some very serious issues with structural cracking in the wing ribs, particularly with the "rib feet", and other areas, it does appear to be doing well now, and flying well.

    My point is that aircraft are much more technically complex than most of us realize, and the claims made for PAK-FA are NOT proven as of yet??, while the F-22 is a very mature design, and has enjoyed a wealth of engineering expertise and maturity.
     
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  5. Air Force Brat
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    Air Force Brat Senior Member

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    and I'm also assuming that you can see me bowing deeply to you brother, even as I humbly disagree that 225 is a bargain of sorts? I absolutely agree with Master Brumby that given the Indian procurement??? voodoo???? or whatever, and the Russian gamesmanship??? it will be a total miracle if this deal ever comes to "fruition"?
     
  6. kwaigonegin
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    kwaigonegin Senior Member

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    Lol .. Exactly!!
    Indian defense contracts + future Russian fighter promises = Tolstoy + the great mythologies of Lord Rama.

    Truly a perfect match made in soap opera heaven.
     
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  7. b787
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    b787 Senior Member

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    If you noticed, i never said my opinion, only what they say, one was the original patent for T-50 PAKFA and the others were Rostec`s description and explanation of T-50`s stealth features, they quoted Alexander Davidenko who is the Sukhoi General designer in charge of the PAKFA program

    [​IMG]

    Paul Bulat in his article about the engine for 5th generation fighters, quotes several aerodynamic articles from Russian and American studies made by NASA and TsAGI.

    The status of T-50 well to be honest that something i can not affirm or claim any thing beyond what they say.

    My personal opinion is they are designing a fighter with less emphasis on Stealth because they think radars will detect Stealth fighters and they will need to be fast and agile.

    Because Russia is a smaller country in terms of population close to 150 million people, Russia has less than half of the USA population and with a PPP per capita GDP of only $24,000 USD around 45% of the USA`s per capita GDP, Russia has to make a cheaper fighter.

    In my opinion they are right, they are making the right choice, the T-50 will be in many ways superior to any of the current 5th generation fighters at least in agility, speed and frontal RCS and it only might turn to be inferior if the opposition has better avionics.
     
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  8. Hyperwarp
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    Hyperwarp Senior Member

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    Since the subject of flat nozzles arose, here are some of the Sukhoi testing:

    Su-27 UB LL-UV(PS) - From 2:07:26 - 2:08:30


    It was none other than Mikhail Pogosyan who was in charge of this project. And, it was a part of the their earlier 5th gen tech demonstrations/testing. The flat nozzole might make its way back to the T-50 when the much higher thrust Izdeliye 30 (165 - 170 kn) engine is available. Square nozzle have thrust penatly/loss compared to the round ones. Can someone do the calculations. I heard it could be high as 20%. (Square water hose vs around hose o_O)

    Su-27_LL-UV-PS_01 copy.jpg

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Air Force Brat
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    Air Force Brat Senior Member

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    This crude monstrosity is the perfect illustration of why the F-22 is so far superior to the PAK-FA, its huge, the nozzle is obviously very large and in-efficient, where the nozzle on the F-22 is small and highly refined. That is also why we went with the 2D nozzle as opposed to 3D, because the very last place you want to hang that much weight is at the VERY AFT station on your weight and balance???

    If some of us are as bright as we think we are, you will recognize that side profile which shows this huge ducting as opposed to the starboard ducting is where all this in-efficiency of the square nozzle comes from. The F-22 aside from being very efficient is also very "Kool" and shield the very hot exhaust gases with aircraft structure.

    More to the point, everything on the F-22 is of a very high level of build and refinement, as this ducting/nozzle illustrate, this is rather crude, and many of the Russian systems are still in their infancy and lack refinement.
     
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  10. b787
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    b787 Senior Member

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