Russia, Ukraine to sell Slava Class Cruiser

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Varyag is still just a hulk sitting in drydock, and no agreement seems to have been reached in the PLAN about whether China should even bother with a CV, much less whether it is worthwhile to refit the Varyag. China may sit this out for a bit to see what is the best route to go. Varyag isn't going anywhere for now, but even refitting her would take years. China may well deside to start small with an indiginous design and go from there.
Actually, irrespective of what the think-tankers say, the Varyag is not a hulk sitting in dry dock. It has been out of dry dock for some period, has already been worked on for years, has been completely repainted in official PLAN colors, had the zinc chromate primer put on which is the undercoat and primer for the non-skid surface on the fligfht deck, and that has now been painted over with what appears to be the non-skid surface itself. All indications that the PLAN is doing a lot more than just "thinking about it" as these pictures attest:

varyag13.jpg


varyag12.jpg


U1335P27T1D431825F3DT20070217083158.jpg


494558.jpg


I suspect (and it is just my opinion) we will see the Varyag launched as a PLAN carrier, perhaps as soon as the 2008 Olympics, or in 2009. It will take them several years to make her fully operational, but the PLAN has alreay cut a deal with the Russians to buy SU-33s, the only question is how many.
 
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Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
well size of the carrier itself isent the one factor dooming chinese first carrier step. All is due what the Varyag would be used and some think that it would eventually come engineless training hulk for aircraft operations.

I agree with Starting small steps, crawl-walk-run method but it posess some proplems. A ASW helicopter carrier seems to be a relic of the cold war, as in concept it poses too big ship and sopisthication towards relatively narrow operational use, and only USN of Chinese potent opponents posess a subfleet sizeble enough to justify concept of ASW helicopter carrier.
Also, the next logical step from the ASW helo carrier, a VSTOL carrier is also bit unrealistic to the China, as there isent any VSTOL planes to field it.
The two navies, Soviet and UK wich first fielded the VSTOL planes did it becouse there was allready existing VSTOL planes to be considered for naval use and in both occasions, it proven to be more politically acceptable solution than full borne carrier aviation element.

But china has now a theorethical change to go straigth foward to true conventional aviation capacity (well, limited by the skijump oddity) and all devolpments in this field would not go waste. It doesent mean that once first Su-33 takes of from Varyag, China will have full power projection capacity, but that they have finally begun the path that other navies took in the 1920's.
 

celtic-dragon

New Member
Actually, irrespective of what the think-tankers say, the Varyag is not a hulk sitting in dry dock. It has been out of dry dock for some period, has already been worked on for years, has been completely repainted in official PLAN colors, had the zinc chromate primer put on which is the undercoat and primer for the non-skid surface on the fligfht deck, and that has now been painted over with what appears to be the non-skid surface itself. All indications that the PLAN is doing a lot more than just "thinking about it" as these pictures attest:

[qimg]http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/worldwideaircraftcarriers/varyag13.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/worldwideaircraftcarriers/varyag12.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/p/2007-02-17/U1335P27T1D431825F3DT20070217083158.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/upload/120/5170/20061019/2472/494557/494558.jpg[/qimg]

I suspect (and it is just my opinion) we will see the Varyag launched as a PLAN carrier, perhaps as soon as the 2008 Olympics, or in 2009. It will take them several years to make her fully operational, but the PLAN has alreay cut a deal with the Russians to buy SU-33s, the only question is how many.
Okay, they painted the ship. I think that the paper mentions that, although I was unaware she had been refloated. Painting the ship means little. The deal for SU-33 fighters is far more indicative, however. If they really plan on making the Varyag operational, then the PLAN has an incredibly steep learning curve. As Gollevainen points out: they are doing now what other navies did in the 1920's. I still think that India is going to try and get that Slava! ;)
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Okay, they painted the ship. I think that the paper mentions that, although I was unaware she had been refloated. Painting the ship means little. The deal for SU-33 fighters is far more indicative, however. If they really plan on making the Varyag operational, then the PLAN has an incredibly steep learning curve. As Gollevainen points out: they are doing now what other navies did in the 1920's. I still think that India is going to try and get that Slava! ;)
It is more than painting the ship...adding the non-skid primer, and then what appears to be the non-skid surface, coupled with the SU-33 deal, all adds up to pretty clear indications. As I said, they then have years of training, doctrine development, etc. before they are proficient...but if they intend to be, then they have to start somewhere.

India could very well be the customer for the Slava, I do not doubt or discount that. It is a natural for them in many ways and they alredy have, as you have indicated, a significant investment in Russian technology. It would not surprise me at all if they indended up being the customer.

I just believe that the other potential party is the PLAN. They also have a stiff investment in Russian-built technology, and with four Sovs already in their inventory, and a Kuznetsov class carrier being outfitted, one or two Slavas would not be that surprising IMHO, that's all.
 

celtic-dragon

New Member
It is more than painting the ship...adding the non-skid primer, and then what appears to be the non-skid surface, coupled with the SU-33 deal, all adds up to pretty clear indications. As I said, they then have years of training, doctrine development, etc. before they are proficient...but if they intend to be, then they have to start somewhere.

India could very well be the customer for the Slava, I do not doubt or discount that. It is a natural for them in many ways and they alredy have, as you have indicated, a significant investment in Russian technology. It would not surprise me at all if they indended up being the customer.

I just believe that the other potential party is the PLAN. They also have a stiff investment in Russian-built technology, and with four Sovs already in their inventory, and a Kuznetsov class carrier being outfitted, one or two Slavas would not be that surprising IMHO, that's all.
Good points. I wonder if the Russians would actually part with any of the other three Slavas, though. Probably not.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Having a Slava-class cruiser may not be a part of either India's or China's naval doctrine, in your opinion. But, SOMEBODY is going to buy the Slava and MAKE IT part of their naval doctine.
Actually, the PLAN's current doctrine, at least as I understand it, calls for preventing/challenging USN carriers involvement in Taiwan's defense.
The PLAN seeks to push its maritime defense perimeter further seaward. This change in operations will require newer, more modern warships and submarines capable of operating out to the Ryukyu Islands and into the South China Sea. At these extended ranges, the platforms will have to be better armed to enable defense from all methods of attack. The Navy has been conducting research and acquiring foreign technology in an effort to improve the broad range of naval warfare capabilities; it also is acquiring new classes of ships that will be better suited for operations out to the limits of the East and South China Seas.
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The Navy is working to build itself into a modern maritime force of operation consisting of combined arms with both nuclear and conventional means of operations. Taking informationization as the goal and strategic focus in its modernization drive, the Navy gives high priority to the development of maritime information systems, and new-generation weaponry and equipment.
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China is also modernizing its force of surface warships. The current fleet of approximately two dozen relatively modern guided missile-equipped frigates and destroyers are all powered by modern engineering plants and are equipped with potent surface-to-surface cruise missiles. This force remains significantly limited, however, in the crucial areas of anti-submarine (ASW) and anti-air (AAW) warfare. It is only since the 2004 commissioning of three new classes of destroyers—the Luyang I, the Luyang II and the Luzhou—that the PLAN seems to have deployed ships capable of “area AAW”. This important capability enables a single ship to provide anti-aircraft defense not just for itself, but also for a formation of ships. This capability is crucial to fleet operations at sea, whether against a U.S. naval task force or for escorting an amphibious task force against Taiwan.. ..In the maritime arena, the 2004 White Paper reiterated the navy’s responsibility “for safeguarding China's maritime security and maintaining the sovereignty of its territorial seas along with its maritime rights and interests.” It went on to emphasize the importance of conducting operations well offshore, timely “preparation for [the] maritime battlefield,” enhanced “integrated combat capabilities” and the ability to conduct “nuclear counter-attacks.” It further charged the PLAN with the importance of “building maritime combat forces, especially amphibious combat forces…[and] updating its weaponry and equipment,” to include “long-range precision strike capability…joint exercises…and integrated maritime support capabilities”.
China’s modernizing navy is already capable of carrying out many missions in defense of maritime security interests, including those involved in Taiwan’s status. While it certainly poses a thought-provoking challenge to possible U.S. naval intervention in such a scenario, the PLAN is not yet able to pose a significant threat to open-ocean naval operations by the U.S., Japanese or Indian navies, either in the East China Sea or over the long SLOCs that run from the Indian Ocean to the Middle East. Hence, China’s maritime strategy is very much a work in progress, with its most likely direction to be an expanded view of post-Taiwan missions involving the high seas of the Pacific and Indian Oceans.
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Weapons do not determine doctrine, but they do signify priorities in Chinese doctrinal thinking. Notable among the recently obtained weapons for the PLA are the heavy missile destroyers (the 2-4 Sovremenny-class DDGs) and advanced diesel submarines (the 4-12 Kilo-class SSKs), both imported from Russia. Both of these are systems that seem designed to penetrate the defenses of carrier battle groups that the Aegis missile defense platforms provide (Arleigh Burke-class DDGs and Ticonderoga-class CGs). Similar points might be made regarding the SU-30 fighters (long range strike fighters aimed to hold at risk American carrier-based air assets) and the substantial modernization (including accuracy improvements) and build up of ballistic missiles (e.g., hundreds of M-9/11 missiles that can be used to threaten Taiwan; MaRV systems aimed to defeat American NMD systems; etc.)
All of these systems would be used in a relatively tactically offensive manner, attacking what are perceived to be key centers of gravity for America (and in some cases Taiwan). In most cases, the use of such systems would have to be conceived of in coercive terms: the threat of their existence will lead to their utility in deterring U.S. involvement.
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So, there is more going for Ukraina and perhaps Varyag in the PLAN than against it! If any of those ships are sold to India, however, China will get very upset with Russia; on the other hand the Indians know that Slavas will be operating mainly in the W.Pac and China Seas anyway- there is no need for PLAN to deploy huge surface armada to the Indian Ocean when there is allied
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,
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, and perhaps
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navies always willing to help!
 
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celtic-dragon

New Member
Good information in that post. I'm going to follow up on the links. I disagree that Pakistan would ally with India against China. Pakistan and China have a close historical relationaship militarily, while China and India have been adversarial. The other naval forces you mention are too small and underfunded to be of any threat, and why would they take part in a row between India and China?
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
I meant help the PLAN, not IN with patrols should they send CBG there. Even if they don't take active part in any engagements, the intel/operational data could be shared with the Chinese.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Good points. I wonder if the Russians would actually part with any of the other three Slavas, though. Probably not.

They probably will. They have one (Varyag) in reduced manning, indicating that the Russians don't have much of a use for this ship. As mentioned before, it is an orphan ship in terms of electronics fit (Ukraina is the sister ship of Varyag in terms of electronics fit), and the Russians would probably like to sell this ship off to raise funds for the Kirov class battlecruiser Admiral Lazarev (ex. Frunze) overhaul. Right now, they have a cruiser and a battlecruiser inoperable at the moment, and such a sale of two Slava's (one in Ukrainian hands, the other Russian) could gather enough funds to get Admiral Lazarev's overhaul done.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
I offer a compomise: Russia and Ukraine may sell their Slavas to both India and China to keep them happy!
Possibly “Ukraine” will follow the fate of the aircraft carrier Varyag, which was sold unfinished by Ukraine.
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China's modern destroyer force will be small, consisting of twelve modern vessels by 2010. The American Pacific Fleet has nearly twice as many comparable destroyers at present, and additional ships will be joining the fleet. The Pacific Fleet also has eleven Ticonderoga-class cruisers, compared to no comparable vessels for China.
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That's a very compelling argument to buy the Slavas!
Notice Varyag CG in the background!-

china_2.jpg


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